Social Skills: Role versus Roll Play

[infax]

On topic there is little I can add here that hasn't been said. I had most of the problems mentioned and was very adamant on players role-playing their dialogues until a friend asked "why can skinny guys get to play phisically strong characters and socially inept guys can't get honey-tongued PCs?"

After that I have always had a hard time balancing roll- and role-playing.

Off topic, Merova:

There's nothing wrong with either style, but a group may contain players with different approaches to stance. When these stylistic preferences come into conflict, the system needs to be robust enough to handle it. The "dramatic" incorporation of resolution modifiers and implementation of extended tasks could be of assistance to both types of players, but D&D offers little assistence.

Do you know of any system that offers the mechanics you mentioned in the quote above?
I like to tinker with the systems I play and I would like to incorporate those kind of rules in my games. If Dynasties & Demagogues offers them that's very nice, but if you could mention any other sources for this I would be glad.

 

[Psion]

Re: Social Simulation

Here's my take on this issue. For you RPGnetters out there, my apologies for reinflicting the "social simulationist" rant on you in yet a new venue.

I'll forgive you. However, I must throttle you for (also a common RPGnet malady) equating "dramatist" and "roleplay." Dramatist is a method of campaign management. Roleplay is something you can do in any sort of -ism.

 

[billd91]

Why is D20 free of merits and flaws?

One might say because merit/flaw systems inherently suck. Or...

Because merit/flaw systems are subject to horrific abuse? Just read enough Knights of the Dinner Table and you'll see merit/flaw systems lampooned from time to time.
The darn things are just really hard to balance. You end up with players taking the most minor flaws they can so they can buy some kind of more powerful merit, or the DM doesn't want to work a particular Hunted into the current adventure so that the flaws are largely moot, or they take flaws in antisocial behavior to reward themselves, say it's "just playing the character", and behave the same way they'd behave anyway without a merit/flaw system.

It's one of the aspects of more generic systems like Hero and GURPS that I don't like very much because of these reasons.

 

[billd91]

The problem is that your class should not force you into a social role. Why does a Bard or Rogue have to be the face man? A great performer need not be great as dealing with people. Look at all the stage actors that come off as jerks off the stage or screen.

And a great performer doesn't have to have any other social skills if he doesn't want them. Maybe he put them also into things like tumbling or some knowledge skills. That's fine.

As far as why it has to be the bard or rogue who's the charmer, it doesn't have to be that way at all... but it might be less efficient other ways. There's nothing stopping you from sinking points into cross class skills. It's just that, because it's not part of your core education and professional focus, it's harder to get really good at it than someone who's job is more likely to put them into those situations.
In the real world, is it possible for a middle manager with an MBA to be really good at writing in iambic pentameter? Sure. Is it as likely as a poetry journal editor with a degree in English literature? No. The focused education and job aren't geared to make it efficient for the MBA/manager, but it's not impossible. Same in D&D with cross class skills.

I am a proponent of mixing class skills around though, but only if the player comes up with a really good justification. Diplomacy might be good for fighters if the character is raised in a culture where fighters are taught a certain amount of etiquette or are specifically groomed for a life in politics. Just swap it in for another class skill that isn't as pertinent to the culture.

 

[reapersaurus]

I had most of the problems mentioned and was very adamant on players role-playing their dialogues until a friend asked "why can skinny guys get to play phisically strong characters and socially inept guys can't get honey-tongued PCs?"

After that I have always had a hard time balancing roll- and role-playing.

Yep - that's a pretty big problem to get past.
I totally agree - that's where I'm at.