Societies and Alignment Detection

[Jürgen Hubert]

I think the "Detect Good/Evil/Law/Chaos" could have an enormous impact on how societies function. With such spells, you can reasonably select those who have the greater good in mind from those who are only interested for selfish reasons, and those who will work well within a hierarchical structure versus those who will only make trouble. And yet, many settings do not seem to do much with these spells.

One of the best examples of using such magic I have seen is in the "Blue Rose" setting - which isn't D&D, but it works somewhat similar in that regard. In one of its kingdoms, anyone can become a noble of the land as long as he passes certain tests of knowledge and ability. However, the final test is to touch an artifact, the titular Blue Rose. If you are Good, it will glow, and you become a noble with all the responsibility and privileges this implies. If it dims, you fail - and you only ever get this one chance.

Of course, sometimes this doesn't work out when a noble becomes corrupt later in life. Nonetheless, overall this test has resulted in a rather just and free society with a high standard of living, and I find this a far better way of using alignment detection magic than the tired old "Let's kill everyone who isn't like us!" which I have seen seriously suggested as a use for the "Detect Evil" spell.


Do you have any examples or suggestions how such spells could be used within a society?

 

[Tetsubo]

I would consider it immoral to make a judgment about a person based on an align detecting spell. Even in the quantified alignment system of D&D... You base judgments on ACTIONS, not possible behaviors... but that is just my opinion... though it is how it is handled in the Dragonstar universe...

 

[WayneLigon]

One of the best examples of using such magic I have seen is in the "Blue Rose" setting ... Of course, sometimes this doesn't work out when a noble becomes corrupt later in life.

I think it's a pretty nifty way of doing it, yes.

"Let's kill everyone who isn't like us!" which I have seen seriously suggested as a use for the "Detect Evil" spell.

To me the Detect Evil spell is the elephant in the corner of D&D; it's something we all wilingly ignore, for some very good reasons. We use it to root out hidden demons or disquised murderers and turn away from the implications of an infalable detector of absolute morality. And it's good that we do this!

Let's be honest with ourselves: if there was such a thing as absolute morality and you had a foolproof way of detecting Evil in the hearts of your fellow man, those people would be either exiled or dead in short order. There's no reason to imagine that it would ever work otherwise. These aren't simply bad, disagreeable or ornery people. These are not simply people that disagree with you, or hold to a different religion; these are people that are Evil. They work against the very fabric of all any sane person holds decent. At the very least, they'd be pushed off into a ghetto or branded with Arcane Mark if the society is merciful. Want to leave or be unbranded? Petition a paladin. He looks at you for 18 seconds, then says yea or nay.

The only way it would not work this way was if your government itself was Evil or strongly evil-tendencied Neutral, and the local religions were all Neutral.

Now, we don't do this because it's offensive to our sensibilities, and because it severely limits the types of stories you can tell. It also goes too far in breaking the suspension of disbelief required to enjoy a good story, because it radically changes human society to the point of unrecognizability. So it's just Not Done and we all kind of agree that it should Not be Done. Kind of like how in superhero games, that little eyemask completely protects your identity, even from your wife and kids.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

So why not have the magical alignment detector only work on magical alignments? Outsiders, maybe undead, and anything else that is tied to a magically derived code of ethos. Everything else is random. Some restrictions would be cases like clerics and paladins who would appear within their deity's accepted scope of alignment range (one step away).

That makes the spell unreliable and the equivalent of a real-life lie detector. It also gives a reason for things like demons to act through human proxies.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

One of the best examples of using such magic I have seen is in the "Blue Rose" setting - which isn't D&D, but it works somewhat similar in that regard. In one of its kingdoms, anyone can become a noble of the land as long as he passes certain tests of knowledge and ability. However, the final test is to touch an artifact, the titular Blue Rose. If you are Good, it will glow, and you become a noble with all the responsibility and privileges this implies. If it dims, you fail - and you only ever get this one chance.

I like this idea... I think detect good is overlooked in many cases.

 

[WayneLigon]

So why not have the magical alignment detector only work on magical alignments?

Oh, there are many ways to fix it. The best one being to eliminate alignments. The second best one being something very much like your suggestion. Detect Outsider and Detect Undead could be safely substituted for Detect Evil and I'd feel comfortable saying that the vast majority of games would never notice the difference.

Even just giving Detect Evil a saving throw puts enough doubt into the mix not to significantly change society save when extreme elements gain control of the reins of power.

 

[delericho]

Let's be honest with ourselves: if there was such a thing as absolute morality and you had a foolproof way of detecting Evil in the hearts of your fellow man, those people would be either exiled or dead in short order.

Problem is, at least some of the people who did the killing would start to find they enjoyed it just a bit too much, and find themselves next on the chopping block. And gradually the whole culture is likely to unravel.

Alternately, if exile is the selected option, then it's likely that those Evil people (or some subset thereof) would band together and wipe out the 'Good' culture.

There's no reason to imagine that it would ever work otherwise.

Actually, there are a couple of reasons.

1) The model you postulated assumes that society works in something resembling a rational manner. This does not necessarily hold - one has to ask questions about when this testing is done, how regularly, and how many people would willingly submit. (If you were worried that you were a borderline case, and the penalty was death, wouldn't you take steps to avoid or cheat the test?)

2) It assumes that the testing gets through concerns about civil liberties. In one of the other threads, a poster commented about a "conspiracy of priests and paladins", and such would likely appear as a concern here. Again, if one were Evil in such a society, one would likely take steps to pose very valid questions about the trust being placed in the hands of such a select (and, apparently, self-selecting) group.

3) Here's the big one: if the world was 'evolved' rather than 'created', then the people who are likely to have power initially are more than likely the more vicious and cruel members of a species. These are the individuals who, through physical might or arcane power, are first able to grab and hold resources, and so prosper. It is entirely likely that such people are going to be the first off the mark... and they are also rather unlikely to institute a policy that is likely to see them dead in short order.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

the whole "detect evil and purge on detection" thing sounds like something that would happen in the pre cataclysm dragonlance world. And we all know how well that attitude worked out.

 

[Storminator]

So why not have the magical alignment detector only work on magical alignments? Outsiders, maybe undead, and anything else that is tied to a magically derived code of ethos. Everything else is random. Some restrictions would be cases like clerics and paladins who would appear within their deity's accepted scope of alignment range (one step away).

IMC, you only get exiled or attacked if you radiate Moderate evil or above. Moderate evil means you're an undead, an outsider, a cleric, or a powerful bad guy. Faint evil means you're just a bad person.

I do have frontier city that was founded by paladins. No one can live inside the city if they're evil, even faintly evil. Faintly evil folks can settle outside the walls, and do business inside the city by day, but must leave at nightfall. And if the barbarians attack, yer on yer own!

But keep coming to church, repent and improve, and you can move inside and join civilized society.

PS

 

[Kestrel]

Those with a vested interest in doing evil would find ways around being Detected. Just look at the Misdirection spell. Its lasts for hours, is relatively low level, and can easily fool Detect Evil.

Detect Evil, like lie detectors, are not infallible, so you can't base an entire law system on it.

Also, detect evil is based on the caster telling you they are evil. That is ripe for abuse.