Societies and Alignment Detection

[Victim]

Ah, but it doesn't matter if Evil people can escape being detected; what matters is whether or not it generates false *positives*. Some people will get away, sure - but if you can be certain that everyone you *do* catch really is Evil, then you're definitely looking at something a society might reasonably use.

Yeah, and if an evil spell is cast on a good person, they'll detect as evil (and possibly strongly). And a harsh system encourages evil priests and outsiders to screw with it, since they can then cause paladins to fall by executing innocents folks.

I don't think that most evil people are so monstrous that they warrant execution or exile. You're probably talking about a significant percentage of the population.

 

[IanB]

Yeah, and if an evil spell is cast on a good person, they'll detect as evil (and possibly strongly). And a harsh system encourages evil priests and outsiders to screw with it, since they can then cause paladins to fall by executing innocents folks.

I don't think that most evil people are so monstrous that they warrant execution or exile. You're probably talking about a significant percentage of the population.

Well, remember the central question here isn't necessarily what you or I think about a system like this (it would obviously be abhorrent, I think) but whether (and how) a fantasy society might use a tool like this.

I think it is *very* likely, for example, that a highly lawful society might use detect chaos to round up and imprison/exile potential troublemakers, writing off any false positives as 'acceptable'.

It is harder for a good society to make the call to use detect evil for a similar purpose, because good beings would be necessarily more concerned about the consequences of false positives. Still, given that a paladin's detect evil is essentially a free resource, I can see it playing at least a major role. Maybe they round people up, then screen them with a detect magic to rule out false positives from ongoing magical effects. I doubt there would be any summary on the spot execution in a paladin-involving situation in most games, but I suspect it would be heavily used in whatever processes they have.

 

[delericho]

Ah, but it doesn't matter if Evil people can escape being detected; what matters is whether or not it generates false *positives*.

That's only as reliable as the person casting the spell. It therefore fails just as soon as that Cleric of Heironeous decides that society would just be a bit better if those tax collectors were out of the way, or when that Paladin falls and elects not to mention this fact to his superiors. Or when a Blackguard researches a spell to disguise his alignment as LG, then masquerades as a Paladin.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Within a school, once students reach a certain level of training, they are tested along the law/chaos line. Those with strong tendencies towards Law are pushed towards areas of study requiring logical thinking and more strict procedures. Those with Chaos are guided to more creative fields and away from rigid hierarchicies.

Neutrals get a liberal arts degree, and are tossed out to fend for themselves.

 

[Raptor]

I once devised an island that sat in the middle of a river that contained both a large town and a druids' grove. Within the grove, and completely unbeknownst to the populace of the town, stood a massive tree which bore three different colored flowers - white, yellow, and red. The entire grove, town, and island, and every sentient life form on the island was linked to this tree, called the Soulbloom Tree by the druids, and it was the druids' primary duty to tend to this tree. Those who possessed good souls were represented by a white flower on the tree were mostly good of heart, and were tended to with great care. Yellow flowers represented those who were neither good nor evil in nature, and were typically left alone. Red flowers were linked to evil people, and when these were found, the druids pruned them from the Soulbloom, and the person to which the red flower was connected spiritually was shortly found dead.

Granted, this is not an ideal situation, and certainly not one I'd personally endorse, but it made for an incredible, and frequently used location by the DM I originally gave the idea to. The result was a very peaceful town with very little violent crime, except for crimes of passion and those committed by people from outside the town who hadn't lived in the town long enough to establish the spiritual connection to the Soulbloom. Of course, were anyone from the town to find out about this tree and the actions of the druids, there'd likely be a revolt (or worse).

I like! What a unique idea.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Those with a vested interest in doing evil would find ways around being Detected. Just look at the Misdirection spell. Its lasts for hours, is relatively low level, and can easily fool Detect Evil.

It's why someone needs to invent a 'Detect Creature' spell. If someone doesn't show up on Detect Creature, they're using Misdirection (since the object you're redirecting to obviously won't have a 'creature' aura), or some other divination deterrent.

But that 'paladin' looked at him funny, and he was dragged off and executed! And for what? In fact, how can we even be sure these so-called 'paladins' are anything of the sort?

A mental image I've had before, in a world with Paladinbots (where paladins must immediately and without hesitation Smite anything that pings as evil - it's their sacred duty!)... a newcomer is wandering the main street, when a bell starts ringing, and all the townsfolk run for their dwellings and start slamming doors.

"What's going on?" he asks someone running past.

"Get inside! There's Paladins a-comin'!"

A Paladin is something to be dreaded, in this setting. Mindless, merciless champions of 'Good'. Last week, I found a silver coin in the street, and I didn't look for the owner before pocketing it... could that be the act that makes me ping? No point rehearsing excuses, because if I show up on the Evildar, I'll be cut down before I can say anything... and who would dare defend me? They're Paladins!

-Hyp.

 

[KingCrab]

Oh, there are many ways to fix it. The best one being to eliminate alignments.

So true! The game would make so much more sense.

 

[IanB]

A Paladin is something to be dreaded, in this setting.
-Hyp.

And if you think paladins are bad, wait til you see the guys with detect chaos!

 

[Umbran]

Ah, but it doesn't matter if Evil people can escape being detected; what matters is whether or not it generates false *positives*. Some people will get away, sure - but if you can be certain that everyone you *do* catch really is Evil, then you're definitely looking at something a society might reasonably use.

Thing is, Detect Evil doesn't give the information to the onlookers, does it? It gives the information to the caster. So, the results the populace gets depends upon... the caster! Not only do you have to worry about the target, but you have to worry about the guy casting the spell. Now we are talking about multiple failure points.

Doesn't sound foolproof to me.

 

[Umbran]

(3) are a pc class that has cast Undetectable Alignment that day or (4) have a really expensive magic item. As far as most people are going to be concerned, it pretty much is foolproof.

3a) Or has an ally who is not Evil who can cast it for them. And Misdirection will do it too.

4) A ring of Mind Shielding is listed as 8000gp, which is certainly expensive for lower-level characters. But, a potion of undetectable alignment is 300 GP.

And to mix 3 and 4, you get those folks who have Use Magical Device and a scroll or wand, neither of which is horrendously expensive.

So, sure, the 1st level commoners are all gonna get caught. But all the higher-level folks who actually have the skills and ability to cause real mischief seem to have the ability to do so if they have the desire.