Societies and Alignment Detection

[WayneLigon]

If you were worried that you were a borderline case, and the penalty was death, wouldn't you take steps to avoid or cheat the test?

You could avoid it, but the only ways I can remember to actually cheat the test are really expensive (Ring of Mind Shielding and probably some other items I don't know about), or to be a spellcaster yourself and cast Undetectable Alignment each day.

It assumes that the testing gets through concerns about civil liberties.

I generally assume those don't really exist unless you have a good and kindly king who also sticks to his moral principals; that's going to be as rare as it is in our world. Since people aren't living by the rule of law, the king or count or whatever makes the laws and if he decides everyone lines up and walks in front of a paladin, then they do so or they might as well keep walking.

It is entirely likely that such people are going to be the first off the mark... and they are also rather unlikely to institute a policy that is likely to see them dead in short order.

Then they'll have Blackguards going around doing Detect Good; same thing.

 

[delericho]

I generally assume those don't really exist unless you have a good and kindly king who also sticks to his moral principals; that's going to be as rare as it is in our world. Since people aren't living by the rule of law, the king or count or whatever makes the laws and if he decides everyone lines up and walks in front of a paladin, then they do so or they might as well keep walking.

The thing is, on one side you probably have the Church of Hextor: "Sire, we have been your greatest advocates. When you needed soldiers to defend against those invading Orcs, we were there. When your armies needed training, we were there. Our congregants have been law-abiding in every respect. Yet well you know that the cult of Heironeous has ever wished us ill, always falsely accusing us of wrong. How can such a wise ruler as yourself possibly consent to this pogrom by a jealous and corrupt church?"

On the other hand, you have the revolutionaries and agents provocateur: "You all know someone who has been slain at the word of a 'paladin'. But what great evils have these people done, to deserve that wrath? The butcher, Simeon*, was known to you all, and was always a pleasant amiable chap. But that 'paladin' looked at him funny, and he was dragged off and executed! And for what? In fact, how can we even be sure these so-called 'paladins' are anything of the sort? Who has checked their credentials? Where does their authority come from?

"No! I for one say enough of this! His majesty the king has obviously been duped by the very forces of evil he seeks to protect us from! Surely, we cannot be faulted for taking the necessary steps to protect ourselves, and the kingdom, from so perfidious an evil! Let us bring an end to this abomination of paladinic 'justice'!"

The thing is, the policy is likely to come under stern assault, both from those with a great deal to lose (those who are actually Evil), and also from well-meaning but misguided folks who are concerned that the paladins are basically not accountable to anyone.

* Simeon the butcher may well be a mass-murderer, and well-deserving of death. But it probably won't be the case that the paladins will be able to produce evidence to that effect for every single person who shows up as Evil. At which point, this attack becomes valid.

Then they'll have Blackguards going around doing Detect Good; same thing.

Not necessarily. A rational Evil overlord may well instead engage in acts of great civic reconstruction (sanitation, irrigation, road-building, education, bringing peace...), such that he's actually a much-loved ruler, and so has little to fear from the vast majority of Good folk. Indeed, he may well have much more to fear from those Blackguards you cited.

The thing is, I don't consider a society that uses Paladins in the manner you described particularly hard to accept. Where I had a problem was the assertion that this was the only way it would work.

 

[shilsen]

I don't see Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos having that big an effect on society. Not only are they extremely imprecise and easy to foil by the well informed and powerful, but only a very limited number of people (clerics, and for Detect Evil, paladins) can use them. And the results of a given usage of such a spell is only known to the user, since nobody else gets to see the various auras when the spell is cast. With all of those issues present, I can only see them being significantly influential in very rare societies (probably an evil theocracy).

 

[Nifft]

So why not have the magical alignment detector only work on magical alignments? Outsiders, maybe undead, and anything else that is tied to a magically derived code of ethos.

This is what I do IMC.

Those who gain power from Evil forces detect as [Evil]. So a Wizard who casts a lot of [Evil] spells, the Cleric of an Evil god*, a Blackguard, and Undead, [Evil] Outsiders, etc.

All Humans detect as "vaguely good" (unless they gain power from a Good force of some kind) simply because they are alive, and thus "powered by Positive Energy".

Cheers, -- N

*) Note that there are no "legitimate" Evil gods IMC. "Evil god" means Demon-Prince or Arch-Devil.

 

[Umbran]

Let's be honest with ourselves: if there was such a thing as absolute morality and you had a foolproof way of detecting Evil in the hearts of your fellow man, those people would be either exiled or dead in short order.

Well, we should then note that the game doesn't have such a thing. Detect Evil is a whopping 1st level spell, and it is known to be easily evaded by anyone who cares to take the time.

When we are trying to reasonably discuss what effects a spell will have, we should avoid such hyperbole.

 

[WayneLigon]

Well, we should then note that the game doesn't have such a thing. Detect Evil is a whopping 1st level spell, and it is known to be easily evaded by anyone who cares to take the time.

Doesn't have what? An absolute morality? D&D most certainly does, built right into the rules unless you've changed them. People can be Evil or not; they either show up on the spell or they don't. The people that DO show up on it... unless you're in an overwhelmingly apatheticly society, even the Neutral people will probably turn against someone that did. At the very least they're going to stigmatize that guy in some way as someone who definately bears watching.

Would you let your daughter marry a man who you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt was Evil? Would you trust him with your money, or to make quality goods? How about letting him serve on the town council, or teach your children? I'd think not. Why would you allow him in your home, place of business, city or nation? If there was someone I knew for a fact was Evil, I'd feel uncomfortable sharing the world with him.

Doesn't have a foolproof means of detecting Evil? Detect Evil has no saving throw, and so works perfectly on anyone in that area of effect unless they (1) literally evade the spell's area of effect, (2) maintain a certain thickness of certain materials between themselves and the spell, (3) are a pc class that has cast Undetectable Alignment that day or (4) have a really expensive magic item. As far as most people are going to be concerned, it pretty much is foolproof.

 

[IanB]

Well, we should then note that the game doesn't have such a thing. Detect Evil is a whopping 1st level spell, and it is known to be easily evaded by anyone who cares to take the time.

When we are trying to reasonably discuss what effects a spell will have, we should avoid such hyperbole.

Ah, but it doesn't matter if Evil people can escape being detected; what matters is whether or not it generates false *positives*. Some people will get away, sure - but if you can be certain that everyone you *do* catch really is Evil, then you're definitely looking at something a society might reasonably use.

 

[Kyrail]

I have just asked my group via e-mail how they feel about detect spells not functioning on normal NPCs morality, but instead detecting emanations of genuine evil energy.

Devils, demons, undead, evil spells, unholy temples, alters, symbols and artifacts. It's still very useful, but it's no longer some kind of dues ex machina plot divining rod.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I think this thread is a cool adventure or campaign idea. A City/country/society, with the means do do so, Implements an "evil detection policy" where all it's citizens are constantly scrutinized by city officials, and if they detect as evil/chaotic/whatever, they are marked on some official list as such, and being on this list means you lose liberties, face harsher legal sentences, and are over all unfairly treated.

The adventure idea is one of corruption. This policy is indeed for the good of the people, but some individuals inside the power structure might be use it to their advantage. (Misdirection to escape suspicion, lying about what alignment a subject is to cause trouble, etc) This mystery is one that is not easily solved by magic, (heck, thats the problem) as has a lot of roleplaying opportunities. It could even eventually lead to the PCs having to overthrow a goodly government and leaders to prevent the oppression of the people by undoing these policies. When Good fights Good, only Evil wins. (And it makes for a ton of moral quandaries. Good PCs can't just go in blasting)

 

[Presto2112]

I once devised an island that sat in the middle of a river that contained both a large town and a druids' grove. Within the grove, and completely unbeknownst to the populace of the town, stood a massive tree which bore three different colored flowers - white, yellow, and red. The entire grove, town, and island, and every sentient life form on the island was linked to this tree, called the Soulbloom Tree by the druids, and it was the druids' primary duty to tend to this tree. Those who possessed good souls were represented by a white flower on the tree were mostly good of heart, and were tended to with great care. Yellow flowers represented those who were neither good nor evil in nature, and were typically left alone. Red flowers were linked to evil people, and when these were found, the druids pruned them from the Soulbloom, and the person to which the red flower was connected spiritually was shortly found dead.

Granted, this is not an ideal situation, and certainly not one I'd personally endorse, but it made for an incredible, and frequently used location by the DM I originally gave the idea to. The result was a very peaceful town with very little violent crime, except for crimes of passion and those committed by people from outside the town who hadn't lived in the town long enough to establish the spiritual connection to the Soulbloom. Of course, were anyone from the town to find out about this tree and the actions of the druids, there'd likely be a revolt (or worse).