Jeremy Ackerman-Yost
Explorer
Abuse of italics...hurting eyes...poor crooked little letters...
Societies: Lawful and Chaotic; What Are They?
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Jeremy Ackerman-Yost
Explorer
To jump backwards a topic or two (or twelve 
)...
Kamikaze Midget, I had wondered why it didn't seem your heart was in those rationalizations for alignment restrictions.
To prove to myself that there are intelligent, flexible DMs out there, I submit this allegedly rule-breaking character concept for your perusal.
Please critique with abandon...
The Paladin I had wanted to build with Bard levels would have worked something like this (having not had the chance to actually play him means I haven't ironed out the bugs yet). From his youth, he was gifted with an amazing voice, but his family could not afford training for him. That didn't really bother him, as it was simply singing itself that mattered to him. He joined the choir of a local church, picking it more for the sound of the songs than for the doctrine. Incidentally, it's a church that has paladins affiliated with it. As he learned the hymns, he came to understand and respect the messages in them. As he grew older, he questioned the clerics sharply regarding the message of the hymns, and they taught and encouraged him. They taught him to read, and he studied their ancient texts to better his understanding of the messages in the songs. As a result, he became more and more committed to the cause of his god. He eventually joined the paladins of his church, though he never stopped singing in the choir, nor studying ancient texts. The two came together in a surprising way when he discovered that the most ancient Words of God have power when sung. And so, he sings ancient battle hymns in a fight to inspire his allies and strike terror in his enemies with the Words of God (Perform: hymn, Bardic Music). For flavor and mechanical reasons, I'd rather use Monte's bard, as spell notes and spell chords feel more like harnessing the power of God's words through song than standard spellcasting (for one thing, this guy just isn't a spellcaster-type). From his studies, he has great knowledge of his religion, the Church, History (incl. Military history), and sundry other subjects he picked up along the way (represented by Bardic Knowledge, Knowledge skills, and Decipher Script). Perhaps because he spent so much time in the world of those books in his youth, instead of out among the hardships of the world, he's something of an innocent, and likes to keep the company of children. He teaches them songs and has learned theirs, and finds he likes to tell them stories. Many of these stories are drawn from his studies, and include morals for the children, but are so well told that the children listen anyway (represented with Perform, with a focus on storytelling, childrens' songs, hymns). He'd be a much more personable fellow than your average, stoic paladin, and would use his good nature and a tale or song to help ease his way into a new environment (Diplomacy, Gather Information, etc.). However, his isolation and naivety prove to be problematic because he has no experience of the evil men are capable of. He will have to reconcile the evils he witnesses in his adventuring career with his faith. And he would be awkward around women, especially independent women, because of inexperience with them and that his life among ancient texts has immersed him in a world of chivalry where women are delicate, virtuous creatures to be protected and cared for (I'd LOVE to play this guy in a group with a really strong and independent female fighter or rogue).
Does any of that really go against the grain of a paladin? Or a bard? Yet it's inexplicably against the rules.
)...Kamikaze Midget said:
Kamikaze Midget, I had wondered why it didn't seem your heart was in those rationalizations for alignment restrictions.
To prove to myself that there are intelligent, flexible DMs out there, I submit this allegedly rule-breaking character concept for your perusal.
Please critique with abandon...
The Paladin I had wanted to build with Bard levels would have worked something like this (having not had the chance to actually play him means I haven't ironed out the bugs yet). From his youth, he was gifted with an amazing voice, but his family could not afford training for him. That didn't really bother him, as it was simply singing itself that mattered to him. He joined the choir of a local church, picking it more for the sound of the songs than for the doctrine. Incidentally, it's a church that has paladins affiliated with it. As he learned the hymns, he came to understand and respect the messages in them. As he grew older, he questioned the clerics sharply regarding the message of the hymns, and they taught and encouraged him. They taught him to read, and he studied their ancient texts to better his understanding of the messages in the songs. As a result, he became more and more committed to the cause of his god. He eventually joined the paladins of his church, though he never stopped singing in the choir, nor studying ancient texts. The two came together in a surprising way when he discovered that the most ancient Words of God have power when sung. And so, he sings ancient battle hymns in a fight to inspire his allies and strike terror in his enemies with the Words of God (Perform: hymn, Bardic Music). For flavor and mechanical reasons, I'd rather use Monte's bard, as spell notes and spell chords feel more like harnessing the power of God's words through song than standard spellcasting (for one thing, this guy just isn't a spellcaster-type). From his studies, he has great knowledge of his religion, the Church, History (incl. Military history), and sundry other subjects he picked up along the way (represented by Bardic Knowledge, Knowledge skills, and Decipher Script). Perhaps because he spent so much time in the world of those books in his youth, instead of out among the hardships of the world, he's something of an innocent, and likes to keep the company of children. He teaches them songs and has learned theirs, and finds he likes to tell them stories. Many of these stories are drawn from his studies, and include morals for the children, but are so well told that the children listen anyway (represented with Perform, with a focus on storytelling, childrens' songs, hymns). He'd be a much more personable fellow than your average, stoic paladin, and would use his good nature and a tale or song to help ease his way into a new environment (Diplomacy, Gather Information, etc.). However, his isolation and naivety prove to be problematic because he has no experience of the evil men are capable of. He will have to reconcile the evils he witnesses in his adventuring career with his faith. And he would be awkward around women, especially independent women, because of inexperience with them and that his life among ancient texts has immersed him in a world of chivalry where women are delicate, virtuous creatures to be protected and cared for (I'd LOVE to play this guy in a group with a really strong and independent female fighter or rogue
).Does any of that really go against the grain of a paladin? Or a bard? Yet it's inexplicably against the rules.
Jeremy Ackerman-Yost
Explorer
Chrisling said:And we'll spare poor Canis the chance of italics abuse.
My poor myopic eyes thank you.
Of course, that's probably my fault for setting my screen resolution so high...
Chrisling said:S'mon, if you do me to respond, I'll happily do it offlist. Just tell me.
And we'll spare poor Canis the chance of italics abuse.
Hiya - yeah, please email me at simontmn@ntlworld.com, thanks.
S'mon said:
While I like the show Andromeda passingly well, one of the most consistently vexing thing about the show is how the Nietzscheans don't ever seem to do anything how Nietzsche suggested. They're really more Nazi and Machiavellian than my conception of Nietzsche.
Chrisling said:
They're Machiavellian I guess, but very un-Nazi. Nazis believed in total Order, and the Nietszchean Superman embodied in ONE man - the Fuhrer. The Andromeda Nitz's are all striving for self-actualisation and are extremely chaotic and un-orderly, their inability to accept the Commonwealth's compromise with the Magog 'for the greater good' compelled their rebellion, as much as any lust for power.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I'd allow it. 
It does break the type of a pure paladin, however. One who is devoted to his Righteousness above all else (your guy is also, at least in part, devoted to his music). It also breaks the type of a bard, one who is dedicated to versatility and flexibility (your guy is narrow in focus, singing hymns and crusading for his deity).
But there are a few other ways you could achieve the character as well, if you have a stringent DM.
1) Mutliclass cleric/bard. Take the War and Good domains, or perhaps, if you can find a Song domain anywhere, take that instead of Good. Have a song for any verbal component in a spell. The hard part here will be armored arcane casting -- I'd spend a few feats to reduce the penalties (I'd say you could reduce the spell failure chance by about 10% with one feat, stackable). Not sure if Monte's bard would have that problem, since I don't have my BoEMII here.
This is doable, it just means that you can be a crusading singer who isn't in the heirarchy of official paladinhood, due to your lack of focus and exculsion of all else. I'd let him be Neutral Good, just have him think of his church as the greatest good. He's obedient to a fault -- he can't *just* devote his life to his god, and so he's unfocused.
2) Bardesque PrC for paladins. This requires a bit more DM intervention, but has the benefit of giving you nearly *exactly* what you want. Be just a paladin for a few levels (enhance the flavor -- his laying on of hands is accompained by a song of praise, his smite evil is with "Onward Heironian Soldiers" in the background. Take Perform as cross-class, and maybe even Skill Focus in it...). Then, design a PrC that casts bardlike spells without it being arcane (no armor failure), with a more specially designed skill list (probably without rogue skills, but with cleric skills...I'd think about 4 Skill Points/level would be enough). The Bardic Music can be extrapolated no matter what the class, because it goes by ranks. Bardic Lore can be done no problem as "Religious Lore," and be limited to items involving your church in some way or another. Maybe even add a few different uses to Bardic Music (one that gives you Fast Healing for as long as you play, or one that serves as a negative effect on evil creatures/unded). It lets you narrow your focus without really sacrificing anything you wouldn't want anyway...makes the extra baggage useful.
3) Be a NG bard for a few levels. Once you have a decent repotoire, have a calling and narrow your focus to the Paladin for a few more. If you ever get all the paladin abilities you want, you may want to finish up your 20 levels as a Cleric, or go a bit into Cleric before you dive into Paladin.
This is purely by-the-book. You'll retain every bardic ability you've ever had regardless of what you do in the future -- you retain them. If you cease to be a Paladin, you still retain your Paladin abilities as long as you act like one (you only loose paladin powers if you do something evil, stop being Lawful Good, or grossly violate the code...you can multiclass, you just can't go back, just like with the Bard). And then you cna finish up as a Cleric if you want some more divine magic. Or, if your DM insists on more rationalization, go into a Cleric before you go into Paladin. Gives you time to change your mindset from NG to LG, and you can only loose cleric abilities if you offend the god -- probably not happening if you become a paladin.
This would also fit your story pretty well. He first was interested in the music (Bard levels), and then was awakened to the power of the god (Cleric levels), and then decided to pick up the sword against evil (Paladin levels).
--END--
I'd personally encourage you to go the Prestige Class route, since that lets you keep the most flavor in your character while only making you a slightly off paladin for a few levels -- more music than martial. I wouldn't mind if you went just for a pure mutliclass though, since classes will always be to me just lists of abilities, and there's no mechanical reason for the alignment restrictions. And if you're DM's a stickler, you'll have to stretch his story out a few levels so that *eventually* he becomes the archetype you envision. You also have to plan those levels pretty carefully, down to the exact level you want to give up/get certain classes.
It's doable, but with the flavor restrictions in place, it's a bit awkward. I'd say you justified a crusader with song powers pretty well. The best way to emulate that, IMHO, is with a Prestige Class ("Member of the Heavanly Chorus" or something), since the Bard carries a bunch of extra baggage, being the jack-of-all-trades. It's not exactly a paladin/bard per se. It's a paladin with song magic. Cool image, so let's make some abilities to fit it in a PrC rather than bending rules for a character who won't exactly be optimized.
That's my DMing style, though. I'm very linient, I've been told. My players seem to have fun with it. But, yeah, for a simple answer: I would allow that character, with the stipulation that I would advise it to be better realized through a PrC than a mutliclass, but if you/your DM doesn't want to devote the time to developing a PrC, the mutliclass paladin/bard works good enough for me.
It does break the type of a pure paladin, however. One who is devoted to his Righteousness above all else (your guy is also, at least in part, devoted to his music). It also breaks the type of a bard, one who is dedicated to versatility and flexibility (your guy is narrow in focus, singing hymns and crusading for his deity).
But there are a few other ways you could achieve the character as well, if you have a stringent DM.
1) Mutliclass cleric/bard. Take the War and Good domains, or perhaps, if you can find a Song domain anywhere, take that instead of Good. Have a song for any verbal component in a spell. The hard part here will be armored arcane casting -- I'd spend a few feats to reduce the penalties (I'd say you could reduce the spell failure chance by about 10% with one feat, stackable). Not sure if Monte's bard would have that problem, since I don't have my BoEMII here.
This is doable, it just means that you can be a crusading singer who isn't in the heirarchy of official paladinhood, due to your lack of focus and exculsion of all else. I'd let him be Neutral Good, just have him think of his church as the greatest good. He's obedient to a fault -- he can't *just* devote his life to his god, and so he's unfocused.
2) Bardesque PrC for paladins. This requires a bit more DM intervention, but has the benefit of giving you nearly *exactly* what you want. Be just a paladin for a few levels (enhance the flavor -- his laying on of hands is accompained by a song of praise, his smite evil is with "Onward Heironian Soldiers" in the background. Take Perform as cross-class, and maybe even Skill Focus in it...). Then, design a PrC that casts bardlike spells without it being arcane (no armor failure), with a more specially designed skill list (probably without rogue skills, but with cleric skills...I'd think about 4 Skill Points/level would be enough). The Bardic Music can be extrapolated no matter what the class, because it goes by ranks. Bardic Lore can be done no problem as "Religious Lore," and be limited to items involving your church in some way or another. Maybe even add a few different uses to Bardic Music (one that gives you Fast Healing for as long as you play, or one that serves as a negative effect on evil creatures/unded). It lets you narrow your focus without really sacrificing anything you wouldn't want anyway...makes the extra baggage useful.
3) Be a NG bard for a few levels. Once you have a decent repotoire, have a calling and narrow your focus to the Paladin for a few more. If you ever get all the paladin abilities you want, you may want to finish up your 20 levels as a Cleric, or go a bit into Cleric before you dive into Paladin.
This is purely by-the-book. You'll retain every bardic ability you've ever had regardless of what you do in the future -- you retain them. If you cease to be a Paladin, you still retain your Paladin abilities as long as you act like one (you only loose paladin powers if you do something evil, stop being Lawful Good, or grossly violate the code...you can multiclass, you just can't go back, just like with the Bard). And then you cna finish up as a Cleric if you want some more divine magic. Or, if your DM insists on more rationalization, go into a Cleric before you go into Paladin. Gives you time to change your mindset from NG to LG, and you can only loose cleric abilities if you offend the god -- probably not happening if you become a paladin.
This would also fit your story pretty well. He first was interested in the music (Bard levels), and then was awakened to the power of the god (Cleric levels), and then decided to pick up the sword against evil (Paladin levels).
--END--
I'd personally encourage you to go the Prestige Class route, since that lets you keep the most flavor in your character while only making you a slightly off paladin for a few levels -- more music than martial. I wouldn't mind if you went just for a pure mutliclass though, since classes will always be to me just lists of abilities, and there's no mechanical reason for the alignment restrictions. And if you're DM's a stickler, you'll have to stretch his story out a few levels so that *eventually* he becomes the archetype you envision. You also have to plan those levels pretty carefully, down to the exact level you want to give up/get certain classes.
It's doable, but with the flavor restrictions in place, it's a bit awkward. I'd say you justified a crusader with song powers pretty well. The best way to emulate that, IMHO, is with a Prestige Class ("Member of the Heavanly Chorus" or something), since the Bard carries a bunch of extra baggage, being the jack-of-all-trades. It's not exactly a paladin/bard per se. It's a paladin with song magic. Cool image, so let's make some abilities to fit it in a PrC rather than bending rules for a character who won't exactly be optimized.
That's my DMing style, though. I'm very linient, I've been told. My players seem to have fun with it.
But, yeah, for a simple answer: I would allow that character, with the stipulation that I would advise it to be better realized through a PrC than a mutliclass, but if you/your DM doesn't want to devote the time to developing a PrC, the mutliclass paladin/bard works good enough for me.Similar Threads
