Societies: Lawful and Chaotic; What Are They?

There are many definitions of society. Maybe it's a bad word. Would culture be better? I mean, hehe, that's another dicey word, though. In this context, culture, society, nation, etc., are liable to be touchy.

But given your definition of society with its heavy slant towards "participation", well . . . that seems to put into question many of the societies/cultures/nations that exist in D&D games. Under your definition of society, I doubt that chaotic neutral, chaotic evil or neutral evil groups could have any culture. I percieve that to be a flaw because it invalidates a number of alignments to be <i>capable</i> of a society.

And a group of people who "strongly believe in individual freedom, but recognized the advantages afforded them by putting those freedoms aside at times for the common good" is a very, very common description of chaotic good. I just got out of a discussion where it was made very clear, for instance, the difference between chaotic good elves and chaotic evil orcs is that the elves would work together for the common good and the orcs wouldn't. Which, to use your standard, now seems to place elves as neutral good.

Which is another problem, I think, with the "group vs. individual" breakdown for law and chaos is that "good" keeps coming into it. Groups of being that work for the collective are defined as both lawful <i>and</i> good. Part of what I'm trying to do with the "social mobility" standard is create a standard that truly not accounted for, on any level, on the good-evil axis.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Chrisling said:
Which is another problem, I think, with the "group vs. individual" breakdown for law and chaos is that "good" keeps coming into it. Groups of being that work for the collective are defined as both lawful <i>and</i> good. Part of what I'm trying to do with the "social mobility" standard is create a standard that truly not accounted for, on any level, on the good-evil axis.

I could just as easily demonstrate that "Groups of being sthat work for the collective" are Lawful Evil. Or just plain Lawful, which it is, IMO.

"Groups of beings that work for the collective" by giving of themselves are LG.

"Groups of beings that work for the collective" by, say, killing those who break the rules, are LE.

Julius Caesar was working hard to improve the lot of his collective, Rome. Does that make him good? No.

You're attributing collecting people in a functional group to good.

I could just as easily prove that it's evil because it's precisely the impluse that is ultimately responsible for war, famine, and overpopulation.
 

Here's a lil' bit of rationalization (it's important to keep in mind what a class actually keeps when the alignment is violated. Barbarians, for instance, only loose rage, and bards don't loose anything):

Barbarians: Must be nonlawful. Why? Because their main class power -- the rage -- is used through a loss of control, a degeneration from order to mere instinct, an eradication of reason, ration, and codifying. There is no hierarchy or structure to the rage. It is, in fact, a breaking down of the hierarchies and structures that normally exist in the body and mind, to tap it's full potential without a concern for control or manipulation. A lawful person cannot destroy those social and natural bounds that tie them up. The barbarians are tapping adrenaline and raw emotional gusto, and, to do that, they have to destroy what keeps that in check. They have to eradicate their own internal structure. They have to rebel against the norms around them. It's impossible for anyone who doesn't like that rebellion against self(e.g.: anyone lawful) to even consider the destruction of norms that can power a rage.

I would accept a lawful barbarian if they explained that the rage came from some other source, but as it stands the rage, at least by default, is a greatly chaotic act -- you rebel against your body's own limits. The Ki Frenzy of the Sohei (OA) class is a good example of a lawful rage-type ability.

Bards: Must not be lawful. Why? Because of their versatility and mutability. A bard isn't just incapable of focus -- focus is an anathema to them. Having talents from a wide range of classes means that you must be mutable, must be changable, must be able to consider yourself simultaneously a healer and a fighter and a rogue. You can't subscribe to the rigid definitions of what you *should* be. Taken to an extreme, it's almost like the mythological gypsy view -- when opressed, when controlled, you sicken and die. You crave freedom to do what you will. If you are lawful, ordered, codified, you are, by nessecisity, focused. And bards cannot be focused in anything but their flexibility.

I would accept a lawful bard quite readily, actually, but that's one of the alignment restrictions I most strongly disagree with. If they can explain why their character is still concerned with being flexible and unfocused and rather...lazy...in skill selection, I can live with it.

Clerics: Fairly evident. If you don't agree with your god, he won't give you your powers.

Druid: As cleric, mostly, except they have to placate the power of nature, implying the "extremes" (LG, CG, CE, LE) are unnatural. Probably more true that druids have to, to some extent, be instinctive, without pondering the world too much. The instinct can be an ordered one (think of insects as a prime example of this, but also social animals like, say, merecats), the important thing is that it's an instinct.

Fighter: Described as anything, really, because the class carries little to no preconcieved archetypes.

Monk: Must be Lawful. Why? Largely for the same reason they cannot multiclass -- focus. Intesne, unbending, unyielding, immutable focus. Ritual. Inner order and development. Logic, purposefullness, and reason. In order to focus that tightly, one cannot waver in the slightest -- they must be an unbending rod of internal and external order. For much the same reason as the Bard, but nearly the antithesis. Monks cannot deviate from their practice, or they can never return. They don't draw their power from order itslef (like the Barbarian draws on at least a little chaos for their power), but they draw it from the ritualized and rational honing of their body. Focus, focus, focus.

I could accept a nonlawful monk if they somehow described how they would keep the intense focus and ritualism of the class.

Paladin: Must be Lawful Good. Why? Well, the good should be fairly obvious. The Lawful is implied by their adherence to a code, and, yes, like a monk, their intense unbending focus. The Code goes a long way for this, codifying and regimenting what a Paladin can and cannot do -- anyone subscribing willingly to a code dictating honor and behavior within society's norms is Lawful. And a Paladin has the additional dimension of focus. In addition, they've got a bit of Cleric in them, granted supernatural powers by a force that they can offend.

Can't really envision a paladin who isn't LG and fits the description.

Rangers: Described as mostly chaotic good, which fit s with their vigilante/wild-man aspects quite well. They don't conform well, in general, and they also are generally noble people with a general concern for the happiness of those around them. Exceptions, however, are not uncommon. They could be as ordered and focused as a Monk, and as wicked and depraved as the worst villain.

Rogues: Described as mostly chaotic, because most of them probably are at least sneaky and willing to cut corners and be flexible where others have focus.

Sorcerers: Described as mostly chaotic, because they surrender themselves to their magical powers instead of codifying and researching them. Sorcerers are probably the epitome of a spellcaster who doesn't need much focus...just the natural talent, and some time to practice it.

Wizards: Described as mostly lawful, because the research and (yes) focus required often favor the ordered and disciplined. Even a rebel could cast a spell, though, if he did the work.

Allow me to be the one to say it: LAW GOT THE SHAFT! ;)

All of the above make some sort of sense from the baseline of the game. All of the above are also subject to exceptions to the rule, though rare.

You can blend the powers of a bard with the powers of a paladin and have no real problem with the classes.

However, you can't blend the dedication to flexibility and bendibility a bard has with the dedication to focus and adherence to a Code that basically defines you as a specific being that a Paladin has. Work around either of these (purely flavor) restrictions, and you've got yourself a valid character.
 

I like your little work thier KM. I only disagree on one point (Paladin). I have played NG paladins quite well before. The reason I was still so devout, without the lawful was this:

My character was 150% out there to help people. He wasn't at all interested in following some form of law in order to better himself, instead he felt the devout goodness of himself would overcome all obstacles. I played that character up like all hell, and made sure to vocalize my characters feelings about that particular issue.

I never once considered the training, the code, the legalities, or the format: and instead I did whatever was truely the good thing to do in the case. I would try and ignore anything lawful. I did lose my paladinship because the DM felt that during a particular instance whenever I broke a towns long standing law that you cannot preach in public.. multiple times... even after being warned... but he let me "earn" it back by giving me a plot motivation. Basically the way I made up for the Lawful element was to change it into a zealous element. My character was a true zealot of his belief system.

However anything non-good or chaotic shouldn't be a paladin, but in this particular interpretation I felt NG was appropriate.
 

Canis said:


Well, this could be considered inflammatory, but I think we can disregard Smith and Rand.

Uh, yeah. Inflammatory.

IMO Smith's free-market philosophy was a reaction against protectionist, guild or oligarchic-centred protectionist approaches, he pointed out that individual free enterprise & free trade can make everyone better off.

Ayn Rand's philosophy is a reaction against the 'self-sacrificing' demands of romantic altruism in nationalism, communism and socialism ('liberalism' in the USA) - "The love that asks no questions, the love that stands the test, that lays upon the altar the brightest and the best". Considering the results of this belief in WW1 & WW2, I'd say Rand sensibly points out that selfishness is not only good but can be the only sane option. Her writing style is a bit OTT though.
 

herald said:
If a society is too Lawful, it becomes to predictable, it stagnates and rots from with it. A society too chaotic is unlikely to put anykind of form of defense to protect itself.

Hm, I'd disagree with that almost entirely. Machiavelli pointed out that lawful societies are hard to conquer - they can direct their whole resources against the attacker - but once conquered are easy to rule, because of their habit of obedience. He used the Ottoman Empire as his example, modern examples would be WW2 Germany or modern Iraq.
Conversely, chaotic societies are unable to muster their resources vs an aggressor, indeed one faction will often 'invite in' an external power, but their natural unruliness makes them extremely hard to control, and those who seek to do so often regret it. Machiavelli used the example of medieval France. Modern examples would be WW2 Yugoslavia, or modern Afghanistan or Somalia.
 

Canis said:


We're defining society differently. Occupying the same area does not a society make. A group of people who actively contribute to each other's well being is a society. Anyone who chooses not to contribute is not part of the society.

A collection of people who are completely self-sufficient individually aren't a society.

Typical Lawful definition of 'society'. :)
 


S'mon said:
Hm, I'd disagree with that almost entirely. Machiavelli pointed out that lawful societies are hard to conquer - they can direct their whole resources against the attacker - but once conquered are easy to rule, because of their habit of obedience. He used the Ottoman Empire as his example, modern examples would be WW2 Germany or modern Iraq.
Conversely, chaotic societies are unable to muster their resources vs an aggressor, indeed one faction will often 'invite in' an external power, but their natural unruliness makes them extremely hard to control, and those who seek to do so often regret it. Machiavelli used the example of medieval France. Modern examples would be WW2 Yugoslavia, or modern Afghanistan or Somalia.

This depends on whether your version of Lawful includes "organized" (yours), or "resistant to change" (his).

They're not the same thing, and can vary tremendously with respect to one another, even though they are both implied to be part of a Lawful mindset.

Not to beat a deceased equine, but that's the kind of thing that drove me to the Society-focused vs. Individual-focused idea.
 

S'mon said:
Uh, yeah. Inflammatory.

IMO Smith's free-market philosophy was a reaction against protectionist, guild or oligarchic-centred protectionist approaches, he pointed out that individual free enterprise & free trade can make everyone better off.

Ayn Rand's philosophy is a reaction against the 'self-sacrificing' demands of romantic altruism in nationalism, communism and socialism ('liberalism' in the USA) - "The love that asks no questions, the love that stands the test, that lays upon the altar the brightest and the best". Considering the results of this belief in WW1 & WW2, I'd say Rand sensibly points out that selfishness is not only good but can be the only sane option. Her writing style is a bit OTT though.

As for Smith, I already admitted I need to review him.

Rand... OK, you're aware that this implies that she's responsible for the shift in Conservatism from being community-oriented to being self-oriented? I had attributed that to other factors, but I'm happy to heap more blame on Rand :). Furthermore, WWII was PROOF that selfishness as national policy is a BAD idea. But, since we refused to learn that lesson, we were given the Cold War. The Cold War is a direct result of the Western powers taking the short view and deciding to go home and lick their wounds rather than deal with a tyrant who made Hitler look like a pansy.

"Romantic altruism" is a bit much for me, but I'll take "pragmatic altruism" or "just plain-old, unvarnished altruism" before I'll take "cynical self-absorption" as a worldview.
 

Remove ads

Top