Societies: Lawful and Chaotic; What Are They?

[GuardianLurker]

Please critique with abandon...

Well, I'm not KM, and I've been lurking on the thread mostly (good stuff all); but I have to say that from my POV what you've described is a religiously-inspired Bard, not a Bard-Paladin.

Of course, if you've assumed that all members of the "paladin order" must be paladins, that's different. However, the description you presented focuses MUCH more on the role of music in the worship (and evangelization) of his god than that of playing a holy warrior, a defender of the faith. In fact aside from the "order joining" I don't see a single "Paladin" thread in the description at all. Clerical, yes. Bardic, yes. Paladin, no.

To be clearer - I'm not against the Paladin/Bard idea, I just don't think you've demonstrated that foucs. BTW, I like KM's idea about a "Musical" Paladin PrC.

On a different note; thanks to Chrisling, Canis, S'mon and all the other philosophers on here; I don't know if I'll like waht I find, but I've OGT to check out Smith, Rand, and Nietzsche now. Thanks for the intro guys.

[Edited: Additions after reading KM's post]

 

[Theuderic]

Nazi Germany makes for a classic example of a Lawful Evil regime, yes. It's in the nature of Evil that there's lots of intrigue and backstabbing, of course. And like the Star Wars Empire, the alignment of the leaders is not necessarily that of the war machine they command - people can argue endlessly over whether Hitler was CE. But the German people have always been Lawful and Orderly by inclination, which made the Allied rebuilding in the aftermath much easier and more successful.

This is just further proof that alignments in real world politics is totally silly. I am not convinced. Nazi Germany a classic case of LE? Come on man. My family came to this country( my country ) from Germany. My parents and their parents can tell you a little something about Nazi Germany. And as far as Germans go I think your statements are superficial in the extreme. All of the backstabbing that goes on in our government...LE? Oh no of course not!

And comparing Star Wars' Empire with Nazi Germany is only further proof of your lack of depth!

Oh ya and you'd better look long and hard at the REALITY of politics in this and every other country. I think you will find classic cases of EVERY alignment in EVERY country if you open your eyes!

 

[Tonguez]

Just to add another factor into the mix

I have a system IMC for 'playing societies' and one parameter is ENFORCEMENT ie the ability of the Ruling Authority to impose its will and have members comply.

It would seem to me that this pretty much deliniates the Law vs Chaos spectrum

A Lawful society is one in which a high level of Enforcement is possible through coercion (ie Tax/Laws/Police/Courts/Proganda-Advertising/Economics) and socieal compliance (ie Culture/Tradition/Comfort/Apathy/Fear)

A chaotic society is one in which Enforcement is difficult and coercion usually becomes violent (eg the Warlords of Somalia, Gnoll Packs, Rioters)

 

[Theuderic]

Hmmmm... interesting. It would seem that this would work far better than adding the evil/good axis. Judging from a purely chaortic/lawful perspective makes much more sense.

 

[Theuderic]

I have a system IMC for 'playing societies' and one parameter is ENFORCEMENT ie the ability of the Ruling Authority to impose its will and have members comply.

A Lawful society is one in which a high level of Enforcement is possible through coercion (ie Tax/Laws/Police/Courts/Proganda-Advertising/Economics) and socieal compliance (ie Culture/Tradition/Comfort/Apathy/Fear)

I'm sorry that I'm quoting this but I feel that i just had to as this is the first truly impressive post that I have seen on this thread. Very good. I would like to learn more of how you handle this in your campaign.

 

[S'mon]

Not Nazi in political organization, but in the pseudo-scientific eugenics thing that they have going on.

You could just as well say the Knights of Genetic Purity, the exact opposite of the Nitz's, are Nazis because they don't want the gene pool sullied by mutant/enhanced genes! I'm not sure what you're talking about. The Nitz's believe that genetically modified humans are superior to non-modified. The Knights believe pure-strain humans are superior to modified ones. I suppose you can argue that anyone who believes any genetic engineering can make anyone 'better' (in the sense of being more worthy, as opposed to the sense of merely being better adapted to a particular task or environment) is a Nazi or proto-Nazi.

Generally though the show's Nietzschean philosophy implies that the best thing to do is maximise your gene pool, and is hostile to the 'Nazi' idea of genetic purity, except as it pertains to avoiding specific defects like short-sightedness or a predisposition to genetic diseases. That's why the show's Nietszcheans appear to be so genetically diverse.

 

[S'mon]

This is just further proof that alignments in real world politics is totally silly. I am not convinced. Nazi Germany a classic case of LE? Come on man. My family came to this country( my country ) from Germany. My parents and their parents can tell you a little something about Nazi Germany. And as far as Germans go I think your statements are superficial in the extreme. All of the backstabbing that goes on in our government...LE? Oh no of course not!

Would your parents tell me the Nazis weren't Evil? No. Lawful? In the sense that the Nine Hells are Lawful - D&D Lawful, ie promoting Order (of a sort) - their regime was Lawful, IMO. They purged many of the Chaotic Evil types quite soon after taking power, as Machiavelli advocates: since Chaotics are useful when you're fighting a regime but in the end are never happy, whoever's in charge - better to eliminate them right away. Standard practice for all revolutionary movements.

And comparing Star Wars' Empire with Nazi Germany is only further proof of your lack of depth!

We-ell, I kinda regretted doing that. I mentioned it because there was a big thread earlier about the Alignment of the SW characters, could Vader & Palpatine be a different Alignment from the Imperial military, etc. I have plenty of depth BTW. I just don't think there's much point discussing examples of evil alignments that you probably don't know about, like Ulster Loyalist and Irish Republican terrorists in Northern Ireland (where I'm from).

Oh ya and you'd better look long and hard at the REALITY of politics in this and every other country. I think you will find classic cases of EVERY alignment in EVERY country if you open your eyes!

Don't disagree with that at all, but generalisations are still possible. I'm typing this in London, England, which seems to me a fairly Lawful place - moreso than Northern Ireland, even though the crime rate is higher. The Celtic parts of the British Isles don't have quite as strongly internalised a sense of lawfulness as the Anglo-Saxon parts, I've noticed - I'm mostly Celtic in culture myself, ergo I'm sometimes surprised just how law-abiding the English naturally are.

 

[Theuderic]

Would your parents tell me the Nazis weren't Evil? No.

Ok where are you getting this from?


We-ell, I kinda regretted doing that. I have plenty of depth BTW. I just don't think there's much point discussing examples of evil alignments that you probably don't know about, like Ulster Loyalist and Irish Republican terrorists in Northern Ireland (where I'm from).
This is what you are doing.


Don't disagree with that at all, but generalisations are still possible. I'm typing this in London, England, which seems to me a fairly Lawful place - moreso than Northern Ireland, even though the crime rate is higher.

Ah again you anstonish me with your depth.........

 

[Theuderic]

S'mon, I think you have playing D&D too long LOL! You can't honestly tell me you look at the world this way!

 

[Theuderic]

I just don't think there's much point discussing examples of evil alignments that you probably don't know about, like Ulster Loyalist and Irish Republican terrorists in Northern Ireland (where I'm from).



Actually I have several friends from Ireland. Again you astound me with not only your lack of depth but your condescending superficiality.....