Sociopathic PCs -- an epidemic?

[Henry]

1) DMs screw with your family/friends to lead the PC by the nose. "But I don't want to save my sister from ogres!"

The thing is, no one in fiction or real life lives in a vacuum. Someone who HAD lost their entire family to rapacious ogres would likely be OVERJOYED to find out they had family left alive, somewhere. Even Orphans would LIKE a family, and likely at least had a kind adult who mentored them, by accident or design. NO ONE has NO family, except for a golem. (I take that back - even Frankenstein's Monster had Frankenstein.)

2) When you permanently die (especially in 3.5), all of the effort you put into a 10 page diatribe about your family/friends goes to squat, and now you have to make a new character AND family/friends. Eric the Cleric #2 doesn't have that problem.

As a DM, I don't want ten pages, I want ONE paragraph. Something that shows that the character was not the product of spontaneous generation from a pool of amino acids. Give me something as a DM I can work with, because when I play I return the courtesy.

**ConcreteBuddha, just so you know, the above was more rhetorical, and wasn't directed at you. I just saw your points and saw a great jump-point.

 

[Henry]

I'll third the recommendation, but for a different reason. I think the Central Casting books are worth checking out because they're totally hilarious. You get the most bizarre, whacked-out backgrounds if you just roll your way through the tables, and let the whole gaming group watch and contribute "explanations" to tie all the little factoids together.

...i'm less convinced that it can be useful for generating a serious background

Tell me about it. Our other DM has a copy, and JEEZ are there some crazy things abounding in there. If you want a character who turned his mother into gold when we was birthed, was raised by a deposed king hiding in a circus troupe, and secretly has the Mark of the Beast on his back, then Central Casting is for you.

Actually, you CAN create a serious background, but it requires a bit of work, and the willingness of a DM to reroll occasionally. The backgrounds are some very original stuff, and if nothing else, a player could read the tables and get some ideas for plot hooks if they are stymied, as an earleir poster mentioned.

 

[Cor Azer]

I've come to the conclusion that the 'positive reinforcement' mentioned above is really the only good way to fight against this archetype. What I'm planning to do for my own future games is to simply try and make 'the world' more interactive. Friends and family will try to keep in touch with characters, and will often be happy to help them out when they can (even if it's as simple as given them a place to crash). Allies and mentors will be available to provide advice or resources if sought after, and sometimes even if not. Miscellaneous characters will try to becomes friends and allies, be it in search of romance, or adventure themselves, or out of a percieved debt, etc. And all these character might indeed end up threatened by enemies or turned against the characters, but I hope that the effect of these interactions is such that it isn't the 'out of the blue' situation that often happens when DMs do use the important people in a PC's life. These other characters (and places, or things) won't simply be forgotten until they appear in danger or as an enemy, those situations will unfold before the players' eyes, and due to their interactions and what they are doing. As such, I hope that even if I do decide to use a brother as an [insert evil villain here], they will care about it because they've been actively involved with the character...or even caused it to happen in the first place, and they know it. And it won't be just a matter of yoinking the free, cliche plot hook.

I've done this in my current game, and some of my players have initiated such as well. The cleric frequently used Sending to communicate with her lover back home, giving regular updates on her status. The ranger sent frequent letters to the king and his advisors, trying to stay on the good side of the ruling authority. Any time the party is in their hometown, the father of the bard cook them a homemade meal. At a debutant ball, the third son of a minor lordling tried to strike up a relationship (well, a conversation at least) with the party's monk.

Of course, things don't always go well. An NPC bard who wanted to chronicle their adventures got captured and tortured (unbeknowst to them); when he was later freed (by their indirect actions), he began spreading stories about how unheroic they were - basically the jilted fan; he's not actually evil, but he's not going to help them in any meaningful manner anymore.

Personally, I still see such relationships as positive reinforcements - they allow for more interesting role-playing experiences with antagonists who aren't really enemies (at least, not in a "I must kill you" sense), and they show that making meanignful relationships with other people can be good... because if you tick everyone off, you'll get nothing in the end.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Coming up with characters is long and complicated.

I can say my brother was a seneschal, for instance, and no one will know what I'm talking about. It will get boring if people say "my dad was a blacksmith" or "my dad was the best blacksmith" or "my dad taught me to make horseshoes".

I looked to historical fiction and non-fiction, and there wasn't much help there in most novels, although I found family showed up more often in stories that didn't involve magic.

Recently, I've read the first book of the Erevis Cale trilogy. Cale's family is not mentioned, but he has good friends (some of whom die, one of whom gets kidnapped). His two friends (Fleet and Riven) have almost no family or friends. Fleet, at least, is a real friend to Cale. Riven's only "family are a pair of dogs.

Then again, they're rogues.

His employer is a minor sorcerer whose father was killed in some kind of magical accident. I'm seeing a trend here.

In the Black Boquet, there's a rogue (name forgotten) whose old father gets kidnapped, but he did have friends. They died in chapter one.

He meets up with a ranger (no mention of her family, few mentions of her adventuring guild) and an evil monk (likewise).

In Cloud of Swallows, three Americans travel to Japan. Of the three, Matthew Stark's girlfriend was killed (and he's seeking revenge), and I vaguely recall him being an orphan. Emily actually had a family, which featured prominently ... in flashbacks. Brother Cromwell's family is not mentioned, not even once. The Japanese heroes have family connections but the villains did not. Some families were wiped out in the course of the novel.

In Romance of the Three Kingdoms, early on (in the more interesting part) most of the main characters have brief mentions of their family.

Once Liu Bei goes off to fight the Yellow Turbans his ancestors, real siblings and so forth are never mentioned again. Indeed, his family gets a sentence or two ascribed to them. (Of course, he is a very distant relative of the imperial family, which gets its own paragraph later on, and drives him to his destiny, or so he believes.)

He married three women, two of whom get virtually no mention in the book (other than one disappearing in a major battle).

They never mentioned when his oath brothers Zhang Fei and Guan Yu got married. Their children basically show up, fully grown and trained, in their first major battle.

Cao Cao's ancestry is touched upon. He was descended from Cao Song, who was adopted by a eunuch (Cao Cao hates eunuchs). His father gets killed, and Cao Cao gets really angry and starts massacring peasants because of that. (It's a more complicated story, actually. For starters, he only used his father's death as an excuse to start massacring peasants.)

They never mentioned when he got married, but all of a sudden he has an "eldest son" in that character's first (and only) major battle.

His first wife dumped him after he lost a battle on the Yellow River, in which her only son was killed because Cao Cao was too busy sleeping with a lady he just met instead of paying attention to war. This is mentioned in historical documents, but not in Three Kingdoms.

Even in Big Fish, a non-historical novel (with no relation to the movie of the same name) the main character doesn't even have a first name. He's married, but has no kids and his family is not mentioned once. His sidekick's family is not mentioned once.

It seems to me the only time someone's family is mentioned in the kinds of literature that might inspire people who play DnD is if someone is famous (by taking part in a battle or being really skilled at something) or if their family gets kidnapped. Or if they're noble, in which case their family still might not be all that important.

 

[AngelTears]

Literature types

Depends on the literature,

If you take Pride and Prejudice it is all about families. No big swords in that one though.

George Gissing's the nether World, the same thing. All about life in 1800's London.

In Beowulf its all about going off with your kinsmen and kill a big monster. All very good fun.

The real question is theme. In romantic heroic literature of the fairy tale kind, the prince goes out through scorching desert, and blistering winter, to arrive at the Dragon's keep and save the princess, whereafter he takes her back to her kingdom where they become married and live happily ever after. This kind of story telling has very little family in it, since the focus of the story is the handsome prince and his trials to free the princess, which all deals with morality in the subtext.

In realist literature, the purpose is to detail the person's life in manner that strengthens the image of the man down the street, with his own personal challenges and problems. In this, social relations (character interaction) are paramount, as this is where the challenges come from, dealing with the demons in the closet and not the ones you summoned through spells and daubery.

To use an anecdote, my character in Call Of Cthulhu's campaign, Horror on the Orient Express, is a fifty something Turkish businessman who comes into England once a year to cash diamonds he has acquired and turned them into pounds.

How he gets tangled up in the whole business of the Sedefakr Simulacrum hunt is very simple, he sees this as a beautiful business opportunity. Because with this job done successfully he can reach new social circles and gain respectability.

That mean he can put his sons through Oxford and as he becomes to know the social movers and shakers in London, he can expand his business. He has a long list of people he knows through-out Europe, translators and businessmen that he has used during the course of the campaign.

In addition, he has worked closely with the Louvre in terms of the Sedefkar Simulacrum, and has become acquainted with some of the experts and understudies of the Oriental department there. He is obviously going to further this relationship by creating an image of a relative expert in Oriental artefacts, by which he can then sell artefacts to higher members of society, and actually aid in saving rare Turkish treasures by moving them to a stable country.

None of the motivations have anything really to do with the campaign, they are goals nonetheless he hopes to achieve, and are what him drive during the campaign. Of course he misses his wives, his mistress, and his children, but it comes with the job. He is ultimately doing it all for his family.

The point I am trying to make is that while family may fall out of the scope of the campaign it nonetheless can be a driving influence on a character's actions and should not belittled because of its effect.

Just to add some more information (poor writing I know), is that for me heroism is about motivation, the drive to stand up and continue in the face of adversity, despite of one's personal faults or difficulties. That kind of hero, is for me, far more heroic than the one who does not find greater challenges than his character sheet would warrant.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Depends on the literature,

If you take Pride and Prejudice it is all about families. No big swords in that one though.

I haven't read this book, what is it about?

To use anecdote, my character in Call Of Cthulhu's campaign, Horror on the Orient Express, my character is a fifty something Turkish businessman who comes into England once a year to cash diamonds he has acquired and turned them into pounds.

How he gets tangled up in the whole business of the Sedefakr Simulacrum hunt is very simple, he sees this as a beautiful business opportunity. Because with this job done successfully he can reach new social circles and gain respectability.

That mean he can put his sons through Oxford and as he becomes to know the social movers and shakers in London, he can expand his business. He has a long list of people he knows through-out Europe, translators and businessmen that he has used during the course of the campaign.

In addition, he has worked closely with the Louvre in terms of the Sedefkar Simulacrum, and has become acquainted with some of the experts and understudies of the Oriental department there. He is obviously going to further this relationship by creating an image of a relative expert in Oriental artefacts, by which he can then sell artefacts to higher members of society, and actually aid in saving rare Turkish treasures by moving them to a stable country.

None of the motivations have anything really to do with the campaign, they are goals nonetheless he hopes to achieve, and are what him drive during the campaign. Of course he misses his wives, his mistress, and his children, but it comes with the job. He is ultimately doing it all for his family.

This works great in a near-Modern world, but I can see a couple of problems with it in DnD:

1) Age. Most older NPCs I've seen don't have the aging modifiers, but most characters are young - they either haven't started a family yet, or they have young kids... in which case why are they adventuring?

The children in your example are old enough to take care of themselves but not old enough to be established and still need your help. Good job

2) Your character is not a full-time adventurer. If I were a full-time adventurer, I wouldn't have kids (or, if I had kids, I woudln't be a full-time adventurer... at least not until I was 32 and my kids reached the "adult" age of 16.)

3) Cthulu-esque monsters are probably not going to try to eat your children. (Now, evil cultists who think they control such monsters might be another story, though.)

Having said that, you've created a very good RP background. You should spread it around.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Damn...

Now I'm itching to play Cthulu...

 

[AngelTears]

I haven't read this book, what is it about?

First published in 1813, Pride and Prejudice has consistently been Jane Austen's most popular novel. It portrays life in the genteel rural society of the day, and tells of the initial misunderstandings and later mutual enlightenment between Elizabeth Bennet (whose liveliness and quick wit have often attracted readers) and the haughty Darcy. The title Pride and Prejudice refers (among other things) to the ways in which Elizabeth and Darcy first view each other. The original version of the novel was written in 1796-1797 under the title First Impressions, and was probably in the form of an exchange of letters.

One of the themes is that of taking the fairy tale and layering it with a realistic style.

This works great in a near-Modern world, but I can see a couple of problems with it in DnD:

1) Age. Most older NPCs I've seen don't have the aging modifiers, but most characters are young - they either haven't started a family yet, or they have young kids... in which case why are they adventuring?

And yet parents and relations are nonetheless part of life. Even their lack foretells of a possible drive.

The children in your example are old enough to take care of themselves but not old enough to be established and still need your help. Good job

The youngest is four and the oldest is around 22. Haven't thought about it in great detail.

2) Your character is not a full-time adventurer. If I were a full-time adventurer, I wouldn't have kids (or, if I had kids, I woudln't be a full-time adventurer... at least not until I was 32 and my kids reached the "adult" age of 16.)

His mother, like most Turkish mothers are to be feared. She runs the household. he just runs part of the business. He firmly believes that children should be raised by nannies, aunts and uncles, and strict madrassas and boarding schools. That way his children will reach adulthood strong and smart. Daughters will of course be doted upon and married off, for they are their mother's responsiblity.

He is in Turkey for 3 to six months before he has to travel again. Since he runs an import export business he needs to keep all the reigns tightly in his grasp.

3) Cthulu-esque monsters are probably not going to try to eat your children. (Now, evil cultists who think they control such monsters might be another story, though.)

1920's Turkey is in a civil war. While monsters do not roam the streets it is lethal enough to be hazardous to go outside without a bodyguard.

Having said that, you've created a very good RP background. You should spread it around.

If I could, I would make money by making character backgrounds. I put a lot of thought and love into every character I create.

 

[Mercule]

The point I am trying to make is that while family may fall out of the scope of the campaign it nonetheless can be a driving influence on a character's actions and should not belittled because of its effect.

Just to add some more information (poor writing I know), is that for me heroism is about motivation, the drive to stand up and continue in the face of adversity, despite of one's personal faults or difficulties. That kind of hero, is for me, far more heroic than the one who does not find greater challenges than his character sheet would warrant.

Bing and bing.

Those two paragraphs are very much in the theme of why I want backgrounds for PCs in my game.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

2) Your character is not a full-time adventurer. If I were a full-time adventurer, I wouldn't have kids (or, if I had kids, I woudln't be a full-time adventurer... at least not until I was 32 and my kids reached the "adult" age of 16.)

I don't know- there were all kinds of absentee parents among the wealthy upper classes of Europe and America, both royals and commoners. There were even those who brought their kids along, tutors in tow.

Tangent- Y'know, that could be a campaign: The household of Bloodstone Manor goes on "safari" in some remote wilderness, and things go wrong... Shipwreck, ambush by natives, vicious animal attack, earthquake, war, opening to the CENTER OF THE EARTH collapses behind those who enter, somebody reads the spell opening a seal to another dimension - anything you want to cut off the family from immediate return to civilization. All of the PCs have to either be part of the Bloodstones' family, friends, guides, or neccessary servants. A Miskatonic University archaeological dig would work the same way... End Tangent

Besides, full-time adventurers w/kids will obviously create the next generation of adventurers who, because their parents weren't around...

Edited to correct punctuation error.