SoD, how can we accommodate everyone?

[Ahnehnois]

Thoughts:
*Character death is not necessarily a bad thing.
*The health system should allow a well-placed attack from a fighter or rogue to kill instantly.
*Finger of Death, Disintegrate, and the like are too easy to learn and cast, as are many spells.
*It's easy to build in options for less lethality: if your DM takes the less lethal option, instead of death you take damage...
*The broader point being that rules don't kill characters, DMs do.

 

[Rune]

Personally, I'd prefer to see a "Save or Die in One Turn" system. You fail your save, you have one round for you or your party to do something to save you. Failing that, you're done.

This keeps the sense of unpredictability and danger that Save or Die mechanics give the game, while also injecting a sense of urgency--and a forced change of tactics.

At the same time, it improves the chance of survival of the party and adds a measure of fairness to the Save or Die mechanics (all without destroying the unpredictability or sense of danger).

 

[KarinsDad]

The main problem with save or die is that if the PC is not brought back from the dead, it takes an hour or more anymore to create a new PC, especially at higher levels.

People talk about how there isn't enough balance in the social or exploration skills of 4E, but I think that having your PC die and you sit there on the laptop making a new one while everyone else is still gaming sucks a lot more than not rolling the dice in a social or exploration scene when other players do. I can sit and contribute, even if I don't have skills. Contributing without a PC sucks.

 

[WheresMyD20]

Save-or-die doesn't automatically mean super-lethal. Save-or-die worked fairly well in the classic editions because saving throws were static numbers. Save-or-die most often occurred with high level spells. High level spells are found in high level games. High level PCs rarely failed their saving throws.

3e changed the math on this by having high level spells harder to resist than low level spells, adding the caster's ability bonus to the save DC, and allowing casters to pump their save DCs with feats.

4e side-stepped the issue by getting rid of most save-or-die type effects, but in the process, it ended up making high level magic too similar to low level magic, just with bigger numbers.

Both the classic method and the 4e method work, but they both have drawbacks. The classic method provides a clear difference in the style of high level and low level play, but it doesn't take into account the power of the attacker. The 4e method takes into account the attacker's power, but it makes high level and low level play seem similar.

I doubt one can squeeze both methods into a game system without breaking the math like 3e did. I think the design team will have to pick one method and stick with it.

 

[Guest 85555]

The main problem with save or die is that if the PC is not brought back from the dead, it takes an hour or more anymore to create a new PC, especially at higher levels.

People talk about how there isn't enough balance in the social or exploration skills of 4E, but I think that having your PC die and you sit there on the laptop making a new one while everyone else is still gaming sucks a lot more than not rolling the dice in a social or exploration scene when other players do. I can sit and contribute, even if I don't have skills. Contributing without a PC sucks.

This is why it is always a good idea to have everyone make backup characters in a lethal campaign. For me the excitement factor added by the possibility if character death outweighs the negatives of making a new guy.

 

[Hassassin]

The main problem with save or die is that if the PC is not brought back from the dead, it takes an hour or more anymore to create a new PC, especially at higher levels.

That's a problem with lethality in general, not SoD specifically.

This is why I think 5e should have a 4e like method to generate NPCs that was compatible with PC generation. Whip up a new PC in 5 minutes using the NPC creation guidelines. When you have time, build it to your liking using the PC rules and options. The only requirement is that a level X NPC is balanced with level X PCs.

 

[KidSnide]

I've never really gotten this whole argument from either side. I'm not a big fan of save or die effects (I find they usually lack drama and are uninteresting), but I don't find them the horrific game-breakers that other people seem to think they are.

...

I'm wondering if the hate for SoDs isn't an issue of inconsiderate DMing. That is, if I'm going to throw in a bunch of foes that revel in their ability to petrify or otherwise SoD you, I like to make sure you have some remedy more readily available. (Or are forewarned so that you can purchase/prepare said remedies ahead of time.) That would help ameliorate the "pain" of the SoD. However, I'd imagine that its quite annoying to be say, poisoned without warning and just keel over "roll up a new guy!" Does this sound likely to anyone else?

I agree that many of the problems with save-or-die are from how it has been traditionally employed. If you take a look at one of the old basic modules (B2-B9), you'll see quite a few traps where a missed poison needle more-often-than-not results in a dead PC. And those are intro modules!

In 3e, the problem is that the spell list is rife with save-or-die / save-or-suck effects. Unless the DM consciously avoids those spells (mostly my modus operandi in 3.x) or spellcasting enemies, PCs will be routinely taken out of the combat by an early bad die roll. As a side effect, death (followed by a routine resurrection) becomes common enough at higher levels, that it loses a lot of its drama value.

I agree with many in this thread who say that SoD needs some optional settings to get more SoD or less SoD if the DM wants to adjust the default setting. But I think the key to SoD is for the designers to figure out where it really adds to the game and where a slower or less lethal effect can be substituted. I think the problem isn't having SoD in the game. The problem is in having it in the game a lot.

-KS

 

[boredgremlin]

I think the best way is to make them long term negative effects rather then save or die.

Death spells? Your reduced to 0hp. Not -10 dead, just 0. Or say the character that fails is stuck in a coma for X number of days.

Petrified? Magical effect that can be dispelled. Your out of the fight for a while but not neccesarily rolling up a new guy.

 

[TarionzCousin]

I think there should be an option to:

[sblock]SKATE OR DIE!!!

[/SBLOCK]

 

[Guest 85555]

I think there should be an option to:

[sblock]SKATE OR DIE!!!

[/SBLOCK]

Lol.