Soft Metals Hardness

[Drake M]

I figure that, due to a lack of specification of what makes alchemical silver not normal silver, I'd just use the hardness for each interchangeably, unless i'm missing something.

 

[lordxaviar]

i will agree to disagree here... as being an alchemical process to make a weapon quality substance, I would think that it was hardened, with the simple correlation that even steel is hardened to use as a weapon.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Are there any actual rules for creating or breaking this sort of circle, the kind that binds an extraplanar in place?

Given the number of 3.5 books out there, I wouldn't be surprised.

Heh.

Player's Handbook, Magic Circle against [...] spell.

 

[Greenfield]

Boy do I feel stupid. You're right of course.

In our scenario, the PCs refused to step into the area. The Efreet offered them *anything* to let him out. He upped the ante to "Whatever you want, three times!", and they deferred again.

So he offered them a gemstone, asking that they dip it in the blood of a common enemy, so he'd know the enemy was dead.

The Halfling reached into the circle to take it from his hand. He grabbed the Halfling and began beating people with her.

Several of them then closed for combat.

You're right, taking the gem wouldn't break the circle. People walking in to do battle, however...

Ultimately, the end result is the same, we just get there by a different route. But I'll remember this one, going forward.

 

[Drake M]

i will agree to disagree here... as being an alchemical process to make a weapon quality substance, I would think that it was hardened, with the simple correlation that even steel is hardened to use as a weapon.

True, it probably would be.

 

[Celebrim]

mmmm...electrum is a natural alloy

What does that have to do with anything? A typical mix of 2 parts gold to 1 part silver is harder and more durable than either silver or gold unalloyed.

still think thats too high for bronze.

Until techinques for producing simple steels where invented, well forged bronze was both the hardest AND least brittle metal material that was known. So much so that it wasn't until the late Roman empire that iron began to replace bronze as the material of choice for the best made swords.

Prior to that, iron did not out class bronze by being stronger or less brittle, but by being cheaper and easier to produce.

 

[Tharkon]

Are there any actual rules for creating or breaking this sort of circle, the kind that binds an extraplanar in place?

Given the number of 3.5 books out there, I wouldn't be surprised. Given the number that I don't own or have access to, it's no surprise that I don't know them.

It's in the Player's Handbook, page 249 and 250.

mmm only problem i have is that gold is actually softer than copper unless you add other metals... so i guess thats 14k gold and that has about the same as copper.
http://www.prater-sterling.com/hardness_table.pdf

I don't think many objects are made out of 14k gold though.

Really interesting topic.

First, while the face hardness of objects is of some use 'hardness' in engineering really only means 'resistance to deformation' where as hardness in the D&D context means 'resistance to damage'. To understand the difference, note that in engineering terms glass is a very hard material (it doesn't deform) but that it is not a very hard material in game terms because it doesn't bend it just breaks. Game materials which are hard are those that are both hard (they don't bend) and not particularly brittle (they don't break). It's going to be hard to take a single value and turn it directly into a table.

Secondly, one thing I've always felt is that both hardness and hitpoints ought to scale with thickness. The easiest example for this is glass. According to D&D, glass has a hardness of 'zero'. In fact, this is only true for very thin glass. Thick glass has an appreciable resistance to damage. You can't take a 5" thick glass panel and expect to bash it with your fist. The problem with glass isn't so much lack of DR as it is lack of hit points. It may be hard to damage, but once you do damage it just shatters. However thin glass has little resistance to impacts so clearly glass hardness scales with level.

The same is equally true of things like wood and stone. Thin wood and thin stone have relatively low DR. An average person can splinter thin wood with a kick, or smash thin stone with a hammer. However, thick wood and stone not only takes more sizable blows to smash, but it takes more sizeable blows to even dent, deform, or damage. The same blow with a hammer that might shatter a 1" thick stone slab may do no damage at all to one that is 3' thick. It doesn't follow that if 1 blow smashes a 1" thick stone that 36 of the same will break through 3' of stone.

Interesting, this would require a complete review of the object hardness system and all related actions like sunder. And another point at why sometimes it's better not to try to bring to much reality into a game. Wonder if it's possible to reverse hardness and hp though.

 

[lordxaviar]

What does that have to do with anything? A typical mix of 2 parts gold to 1 part silver is harder and more durable than either silver or gold unalloyed.

.

ok but natural electrum is 4-1 gold to silver.

 

[lordxaviar]

It's in the Player's Handbook, page 249 and 250.
I don't think many objects are made out of 14k gold though.
.

really? well items have to be maximum 24 k or its too soft to work with. gold pieces were bit and if they didnt bend they were known to be fake.

 

[Celebrim]

ok but natural electrum is 4-1 gold to silver.

Ok, but I'm still not understanding exactly how the fact that the electrum alloy is naturally occuring (a fact I was aware of) is a rebuttle to the fact that electrum is slightly more durable than either pure gold or pure silver (just as bronze is more durable than pure tin or pure copper and brass is more durable than pure copper or pure zinc). Yes, electrum is naturally occuring but so what. The natural stuff may well be more durable as well, I just haven't found any nice tables that show its properties over a range of mixtures.

In any event, the traditional D&D price of an electrum coin (1/2 a gold piece) suggests that D&D electrum coins are probably somewhat more than 1/2 silver. So again, the natural ratio (in some parts of the world) is not very relevant. Whether a mixture of say 2 parts silver to 1 part gold is noticably more durable than either of its constituents, I couldn't say. But, since this is more art than science, I'll go with my instincts on this and say, "Meh. Maybe. How often are you going to be wearing electrum armor anyway?"