Solving the minion problem: Waves!

[Asmor]

Idea: Minions are designed so that they can be killed in a single hit. Given that it's expected a normal monster will take around 4 hits, give or take, a minion should be worth 1/4 what a normal monster is.

Fact: Minions die to auto-damage. Many minions can be killed by a single power which attacks an area. Neither of these are inherently problems in and of themselves.

Problem: Area-effect attacks which deal auto-damage without an attack roll. I'm looking at you, Stinking Cloud. These completely rob the minions of any effect.

Solution: As the GM, you keep a secret tally of "wasted" minions. Generally speaking, wasted minions are minions killed in excess of what is reasonable for resources expended in fighting them. As my personal rule of thumb, I never consider a minion wasted if an attack roll was required to hit it, and I'm also fine with allowing an auto-damage power kill one.

At some point in the fight, when it is opportune, you send in reinforcements, equal in number to the wasted minions. The new minions will require new actions to kill, thus preserving the assumed economy with respect to minions and encounter design.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I like the idea and may give it a try. I don't think that killing 2 minions 'auto-fire-stinking-cloud' is too much, so maybe I would use 2 as the threshold. But I would also take into account what sort of power has been expended. If the PCs expend a Daily to slot 5 minions..fine, but if from an 'at will'...then I can see 4 of them coming back.

 

[Skallgrim]

Honestly, I use the normal minions in waves quite often. I really try to make sure that they make good use of cover and concealment, don't bunch up conveniently, and otherwise behave fairly tactically (limited by their own intelligence, of course). I had one poorly thought out encounter where a lot of the minions died to one good attack (earning our wizard the nickname "The Room-Broom"), and after that, I try to behave more sensibly.

Also, I find that minions are the perfect addition to encounters when the PCs skip or bypass an encounter (and the resultant XP), or are on the cusp of a convenient place for level advancement (if they get a little more xp, they'll go up a level at a point where it makes narrative sense to be able to level up and retrain).

Minions are like Jello. There's always room for minions.

I don't however, think I would add them back if they were "wasted" (unless I added more xp too). The players get the xp for behaving cleverly. If they were able to remove a threat at little or no risk to themselves, that's what I WANT to encourage. The rogue who sneak attacks an unsuspecting guard and kills him didn't risk herself much either, but she gets the XP (and there's not another guard).

However, if your players enjoy the challenge (especially if you don't tell them you're recycling the easy kills) and have fun, then who am I to argue?

 

[Cadfan]

That's basically what I do. Minions die very quickly. The solution is more minions, located in places that can't be caught in the initial blast of a Wizard with Improved Initiative, a Burst X spell, and something to prove.

I've been doing this since 3e. It was my solution for Turn Undead.

The best advantage of this solution is that the guy who nukes the battlefield still gets to do his thing and feel cool, and no one knows you're adjusting the enemy's numbers behind the scenes unless you tell them.

 

[Abisashi]

While I agree that sometimes minions die too easily, using waves in excess would make controllers less effective, and if the player finds out, likely less fun. I think what you suggest is an excellent idea, in moderation.

I'd also give the heroes the xp for killing the 'wasted' minions twice.

After thinking some more, I'm not sure its a good idea to tie the second wave of minions to the number 'wasted' in the first wave. I agree with Skallgrim's reasoning on this.

 

[Syrsuro]

The real issue is that minions are not really worth 1/4 of a creature of the appropriate level. At least not under most circumstances (i.e. barring unusual terrain or other features designed to make them hard to reach).

Or rather, they may be worth 1/4 of a creature if the party has no bursts or blasts and has to expend an attack to kill them one at a time. But as soon as the party has other options, their 'value' drops quickly.

So, while I am hesitant to simply recycle them if they are killed (for the reasons given above) I do think that their numbers need to be increased - especially if you have controllers (or swordmages) in your party.

Bottom Line: I would play with the numbers to find the real 'minion to regular' ratio for your particular play group. Start at 4 to 1 and start increasing their numbers until they are carrying their 'weight' in the encounter.

Carl

 

[eamon]

Idea: Minions are designed so that they can be killed in a single hit. Given that it's expected a normal monster will take around 4 hits, give or take, a minion should be worth 1/4 what a normal monster is.

Fact: Minions die to auto-damage. Many minions can be killed by a single power which attacks an area. Neither of these are inherently problems in and of themselves.

On the other hand, most monsters may need 4 hits to die, but they get only one attack a round, whereas 4 minions get 4 - and can be very useful flanking or aid another buddies.

It's not always easy to get off the right kind of auto-damage, and in any case you need a character geared for it. If minions avoid bunching up unnecessarily they can have better survival chances.

In general I think minions are valued correctly (if at all, they're more powerful than they look, not weaker).

Killing minions is part of the controller shtik. If you make a controllers efforts meaningless by just sending in more, what's the point? It's ok for the occasional battle to be a pushover, and it shouldn't be happening all the time.

 

[WalterKovacs]

I've seen a couple modules that include a spot with "minion spawning" as a way of having waves of minions, which prevents all the minions from just getting taken out in a single wave. In general, one of the best parts of area attacks are their power against minions ... Many do a small ammount of damage of each enemy, which is often worse that focusing damage on a single target and taking it out faster. So not allowing AoE to wipe out lots of minons is nerfing some of the PCs power choices.

 

[Leatherhead]

Or rather, they may be worth 1/4 of a creature if the party has no bursts or blasts and has to expend an attack to kill them one at a time. But as soon as the party has other options, their 'value' drops quickly.

This.

The problem with minions and AoE powers is that anyone can pick up an AoE power by level 5, and several people do so. If you use minions with any regularity, expect several members of the group to learn one or two. Even if you don't use minions all that often, some AoE powers are just too good to pass up, and some classes have great synergy with AoE powers, so they will pick up a few anyway.

Using waves of minions and giving minions bows/ranged attacks are workarounds, but they feel cheep and formulaic when used extensively. For now, I limit the amount of minions that I use in encounters, and I am trying to tweak the mechanics of hazards and traps to better represent hordes of monsters.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I'd certainly agree that a second wave of minions would be a good idea - particularly if they can attack from a different direction!

All part of good 4e encounter design I think. Having stuff attack from odd directions, or be tactically smart, or so forth.