Some PC designs bouncing in my head...

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ok...looking over the Hybrid rules some more in my search for another class to emulate the Brawler Fighter has left me confused.

The Hybrid Battleminds and Warlords who take the Hybrid Talent Feat choose between 2 options, in each case, one of the options means the PC receives "(Class Name) Armor Proficiency"- and lists gaining proficiency with a variety of armors...in which each Hybrid class is described as already having that proficiency.

Is this a typo or did I miss something?

In addition, would Box be able to take Eldritch Blast as one of his first level at-will attacks?

As for Tommy Bahamut, what about comboing Bard/Seeker, Bard/Shaman or Bard/Warden for this Draconic singing quasi-hippie?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Hybrids get the lesser of their armour proficiencies. If one class is proficient in cloth and leather and the other in everything up to plate, you only get the cloth and leather.

Question: Why do you need to go for a hybrid? The things normally take sytem-fu to do well and most concepts can fit into one of their base classes. (For a draconic singing quasi-hippy, I'd take a Bard and multiclass him using the multiclass feats into one (or more, him being a bard) of the Primal classes). Or possibly even a Bard with both divine and primal multiclass feats.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Hybrids get the lesser of their armour proficiencies. If one class is proficient in cloth and leather and the other in everything up to plate, you only get the cloth and leather.

Ah! So the Hybrid Talent feat lets the PC gain all of those proficiencies at once!

Question: Why do you need to go for a hybrid?

Part of my ongoing dissatisfaction with 4Ed is based in the way its standard multiclassing via Feats truncates abilities of the class you're taking the feat you're entering. I don't care for the particular choices the designers made for pruning or inclusion, I don't care for the power swap feats, etc. And that several of the abilities lost are on the entry level of the class rather than at the high-end (as happens in 3.X) is, to me, bass ackwards.

While the Hybrids also chop some stuff, I find the manner in which its done to be more palatable.

 

[mneme]

The dual wielding classes are Ranger, Barbarian, and Fighter, in descending levels of crunchiness. Actually, Whirling Barbarians are arguably even less crunchy than fighters, though they have slightly lower AC at the top end, as they have high AC/HP and don't spend effort pulling bad guys off their party members beyond being high value targets.

It's pretty obvious that knocking stuff off the low end of classes is the right way to go -- you want to frontload a lot into most classes, so doubling that load by multiclassing can easily make a class too powerful (see: 3.0 edition rangers). Hybrids let you keep a lot of the frontloading by restricting most synergistic features to either-or (no attacking with Wizard powers and applying sneak attack or fighter marks to everyone in the blast), but overall, they're weaker than regular multiclassing unless you've got a trick.

It's also important to note that 4e has a third, hidden form of multiclass built into it -- every single class is actually about 3 different (at least) classes in one. Combine them a bit more than the default and you can make a character that feels like a multiclass even though they're built around a single class, with no mechanical multiclass in them at all.

Box feels like a multiclass to me, not a hybrid. His aspect of "bad-ass -- but occasionally pulls some trick out of his demon heritage" feels very much like someone who will go whole fights without drawing on warlock powers, saving them for when they're necessary -- which looks to me like he starts with a warlock multiclass (probably for Eldritch Strike), gets an encounter swap feat when it's available, and switches it out for a daily swap feat (levelling up the feat, so he can use different tricks at different points in his career rather than work any single warlock ability into his primary portfolio) at 10th level. In terms of his major class -- it depends. As a warforged, he's strong and tough; that lends itself to the battlerager fighter, but he could go other directions.

Another approach is to make him a single-classed (or maybe with a multiclass into fighter or barbarian) infernal warlock. His main attack would be eldrich strike -- a weapon attack with tremendous utility, despite being the only weapon attack warlocks have access to in-class, but when he needed to he could pull out a host of eldrich tricks from his ancestry (including some of the warlock tricks that let you damage people close to you). Rather than multiclass, he'd focus on boosting his armor and basic attack, getting the "warrior with magical abilities" feel without ever taking on another class to any significant level.

 

[Obryn]

(DOH! mneme suggested this at the end of his post. I fail.)

This may seem a little wacky, but why not make Box a full-fledged Infernal Warlock instead of messing around with hybrids? It fits a Warforged very well, and Eldritch Strike is a pretty damn good primary melee attack. While this would be a non-standard warlock, to be sure, it has a lot of potential.

Heck; if you're a Warforged, you can technically implant any 1-handed weapon to work as a fist. Upgrade to a craghammer, if you have the feats to spare. Throw a few points into Strength, too, so you can upgrade to Chain (or even Scale or Plate) armor. (Being a Warforged helps a lot here.)

You won't want for damage with your Warlock's Curse, and you've got the potential to be tough as nails with a the Infernal Warlock's access to temporary HPs. Concentrate on Close attacks for the rest of your powers, when possible, or take thematically-appropriate ranged attacks.

Just another thought to throw out here!

-O

 

[mneme]

It's all good, Obryn! GMTA! Mind, I'd probably go with an embedded blade, not a craghammer -- as that way, you can unify your weapon and implement with AIP: heavy blades.

 

[Obryn]

It's all good, Obryn! GMTA! Mind, I'd probably go with an embedded blade, not a craghammer -- as that way, you can unify your weapon and implement with AIP: heavy blades.

True! But the hammer fits in more with the character concept; it's easier to picture it as a fist.

Also, with a quick multiclass into Fighter, plus his high Constitution and reasonable Strength, there are several good hammer-related feats to pick from. (And then at Paragon, he could pick up Avernian Knight so it won't matter which melee weapon he's using.) I doubt he'd have the Dexterity for too many blade-related feats.

-O

 

[mneme]

True! And, of course, he could use a pact hammer during the awkward period where the dual hammer/implement thing was an issue.
(edit: or not. pact hammers are dwarf-only -- shame, that! I don't actually think there's a way for a non-dwarf to use a hammer as a implement in heroic)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Thanks for the suggestions, all! Keep 'em coming!

Various issues in no particular order:

1) Where is the gauntlet listed in the game? Is it only in Martial Power (or DDI, or whatever) or am I missing it somewhere? Or will I have to reflavor the Club?

2) I'm a bit disappointed that 90% of the Monk powers are Dex based...and I'm known for Dex based 3.X Monk builds! Given the prevalence of Str Monk builds in the previous edition, you'd think that they'd throw that option a bone, especially considering the "Stone Fist" Monk fluff and RW power-based martial arts techniques. Perhaps I can get the DM to let me reskin some Monk powers as Str based.

3) I don't think Box as a solo/primary Infernal Warlock fits the Hellboy side of the Hellboy/Hellraiser theme. Hellboy is a pugilist who is amazingly strong, tough and resilient. He's strong enough to lift about 10 tons and actually regenerates- no chance of that happening in D&D without items, though. There are hints to his having other demonic abilities that he does not use because to do so would bring him closer to being like the demons he has rejected.

By making him a Hybrid as opposed to multiclassed, he'll have access to certain abilities that will fill in for some of the over-the-top physical stuff that simply won't be achievable in 4Ed. He'll be more distinct from being a pure Hellboy knockoff; the Hellraiser aspects will make him even more alien than just another Warforged.

That said, I'm still going to take a closer look at mneme's suggestion about Eldritch Strike. (Where is that, BTW? I'm not in front of my 4Ed PHB at the moment, but I only recall Eldritch Blast.)

4) I do intend for Box to get one or more components over time, though I'm not quite sure exactly which ones and how I'd like to do them.

I'd like to get that "lamp" mounted in his chest for a bit of an "Iron Man" vibe, for one (as well as being useful).

But some of the other stuff? Ideally, I'd envisioned his components as appearing from and disappearing within his body as he reconfigures himself a la a LeMarchand box: *whirrrr clack hummm* a flash of light and a hint of ozone & sulphur. But from what I understand, components are not concealable. They're either on the Warforged and obvious or not part of him at all.

(Hmmm...perhaps for more Hellraiser flavor, he should use a spiked chain...)

5) OK...did 4Ed do away with arcane spell failure completely? I've been looking to see if armor would disrupt a Warlock's powers and didn't see an answer. Then I looked at other classes and didn't see one there either...

Of course, I'm just flipping around in the books- my system mastery of 4Ed is still low.

6)

It's pretty obvious that knocking stuff off the low end of classes is the right way to go...

To you, maybe, but I strongly disagree with that design decision for a variety of reasons.

 

[Obryn]

2) I'm a bit disappointed that 90% of the Monk powers are Dex based...and I'm known for Dex based 3.X Monk builds! Given the prevalence of Str Monk builds in the previous edition, you'd think that they'd throw that option a bone, especially considering the "Stone Fist" Monk fluff and RW power-based martial arts techniques. Perhaps I can get the DM to let me reskin some Monk powers as Str based.

That's pretty much a staple of post-PHB1 class design. A quick overview...

All newer classes (and about half of the PHB1 ones) have a single primary attack stat. This stat is used for all of their attacks. They also have (at least) two secondary stats, most often related to a "subclass" so to speak. This is what's called an "A-shaped" class, if you've seen that term bandied about. (Some PHB1 classes - the Warlock, Cleric, Paladin, and kinda the Ranger - are V-shaped, with two primary attack stats and a third common stat for other effects.)

I don't think there'd be an issue with reflavoring a Monk to use Strength as their primary attack stat. I'd check with your DM about doing something about your AC, though.

3) I don't think Box as a solo/primary Infernal Warlock fits the Hellboy side of the Hellboy/Hellraiser theme. ... That said, I'm still going to take a closer look at mneme's suggestion about Eldritch Strike. (Where is that, BTW? I'm not in front of my 4Ed PHB at the moment, but I only recall Eldritch Blast.)[/quote]
It was in a PHB Heroes minis set. I only know of it through the Character Builder; it can be chosen instead of Eldritch Blast. It's a Weapon attack, vs. AC, using either Constitution or Charisma. On a hit, it slides the target 1. It can be used as a basic attack.

5) OK...did 4Ed do away with arcane spell failure completely? I've been looking to see if armor would disrupt a Warlock's powers and didn't see an answer. Then I looked at other classes and didn't see one there either...

Of course, I'm just flipping around in the books- my system mastery of 4Ed is still low.

Yes, though it's still crazy expensive, feat-wise and stat-wise, to get your Wizard into scale or plate armor. And once you've done that, you still probably don't have a better AC than a robed Wizard does given how a DEX/INT modifier only helps in Light Armor.

Basically, if you really want your wizard or warlock to wear armor, you can feel free. In fact, Leather Armor is a very common feat choice for Wizards. For a Warlock, you're probably about as well off in Hide as you would be in Chain, assuming you're keeping your Intelligence up; either one is a good feat choice.

-O