Some Thoughts on Logic

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Tharivious_Meliamne

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Ok, I know what's being thought. Tharivious_Meliamne, long post, Thoughts in the title = rant. And that's right, sort of. I just thought I'd make this thread since it applies to so many of the other threads that have come up over the last year. What am I talking about?

Logic.

I know, I know; I'm talking about logic in regards to a fantasy setting. How can real world logic apply to a setting where demons, devils, dragons, and angels are present, and every other being you see is either one of the aforementioned things, or a vampire? Simple, try to see it from your character's point of view.

Your character may have been to the Nine Hells and back again, but when he goes to the Crossroads, he's still going to a humanoid tavern. (( Does this mean that other creatures shouldn't be allowed? Far from it, in fact I'd be a hypocrite if I said otherwise. )) Shouldn't even the most hardened individual notice when something out of the normal walks in through the doorway? When something different walks into a room filled with humans and elves, wouldn't they at least glance when that different something enters?

Let's look at it from a different perspective: Say you're in a club, or bar, or whatever, and you see, oh, let's say someone who is over seven feet tall walk into the room. It's a relatively well lit place, and you can see clearly. Wouldn't you notice someone unusually tall walking in? Would you at least glance to see if the view from the corner of your eye was accurate? I think most people would, and I know that I would. (( Note, I have nothing against the extraordinarily tall :p ))

Let me give an example from the chats from the other night to demonstrate, and no, I'm not bitter about it, just find it amusing and fitting to my point.

I brought in my Nocturan Deadfall character, anyone who has read over the Apathy thread (( Which I think is all of 4 or 5 people when it goes in multiple page per day posting sprees. )) knows of him. He's about eight and a half feet tall, and probably weighs as much as a mid-size car. He's a lizardfolk in general appearance, but he's also a sort of flesh golem/machine hyrbid, and covered in chains from head to toe almost. The sort of thing that is very much out of the ordinary in a human based tavern.

Now, when he got in there, the room was quiet, maybe four or five people in there tops, and very little was going on, three of the characters were almost silent the entire time he was in, which was about 20-30 minutes. Not a single of these humanoid characters even glanced at him, not even once. Now, this could be chalked up to laziness on the players' part, and to the usual 'I don't know you, so I won't acknowledge your existence' attitude that has been mentioned so often on these boards; except for one thing:

Within a minute of my entering, I was PMed by another player, asking if Nocturan was undead. I politely said no, and explained that he might look that way, and was informed that the description was why I was asked. Now, if a player reads the description, can pick out something that their character would take notice of on sight, and then proceeds to ask about it, wouldn't you think that said character would at least take a glance at that something?


I'm sure that many would suggest solving this problem by saying 'don't play something so different and your character might be more welcomed by others', but I personally would hate to think that is the only solution. It would stifle the vital creativity of the site to say that, and it could take some of the enjoyment out of it for others.

Obviously, noticing others isn't the only subject where Logic seems to be lacking at times, but I've gone into Combat and several other things on several other threads, so I won't cover them here.

And yes, I know I'm preaching to the proverbial choir here, the players that frequent these message boards are very seldom not the problem, but I just thought it should be said.

I'm also not saying that everyone has to notice every little thing that happens, but just think logically. When something unusual shows up, put yourself in your character's shoes. Would you notice what just walked in the door if you were there in person?
 
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Jardel_Karabella

Guest
To be honest, this sounds very much in the vein of the "dying character needs healing now!" plea for attention. Your not happy with the lack of attention your idea got so your blaming the audience.

I will point out that since the tavern is set in the middle of a mostly human settlement in the Greyhawk setting that those who bring in such extremely bizarre characters don't really have much of a leg to stand on when saying "logic" should dictate other people pay attention to them since logic also dictates they wouldn't be going into the tavern for a friendly drink after panicking the natives. So I think you should rethink your basis of your arguement here.

Also consider this: There's a large chunk of the patrons who have been visiting the tavern for years, they have also been regulars or Juxta and "Outside" and hence seen more freaks than you can count. If they were shocked by every one of them they would have died of heart attacks long ago.

Add to this that the fantasy settings in mainstream roleplaying include settings like Planescape, Rifts, etc where you can come across anything phenomenally freaky while shopping for your daily groceries and there's no real reason to expect a big reaction for bringing anything into see these people.

The undead question might very well have been related to a character's ability to sense the presence of undead, perhaps by smell or a sixth sense. Even if they had been noticed it may well be they had no intention of letting the creature know they'd taken particular notice of you. Hell, some weeks we're more shocked by the normal humans who walk in.

Which is another point, just because people don't appear to be shocked/suprised/etc doesn't mean that they haven't noticed you. Jardel is a person who's spent a huge portion of his life mastering looking stoney faced under the worst circumstances. He might notice something that completely baffles or terrifies him, but he won't necessarily so much as raise a brow to it purely he doesn't want it to know it's had that effect on him.

That being said I would never try anyone how their character should react to anything, even massive groups of people. Humanity in reality has incredibly diverse range of responses to varying stimuli depending on the region, history and individuals. There was a time when nobody could imagine a woman wearing pants, now it is commonplace. The Japanese once had a culture where breeches or etiquette or the creation of faulty goods was a death penalty effect where you were expected to carry out the penalty yourself, nowdays many places have abolished the death penalty for even the most horrific crimes.

Since fantasy allows for even larger diversity and multi-world fantasy allows for unfathomable diversity I think it's safe to say that there's no way to "logically" assume the reaction of anyone. Especially since in this setting players have the right to notice or not notice what they want (I'm not endorsing gratidious use of the /ignore command, merely pointing out that since we all come from campaign worlds it's sometimes smoother to let things go if it's going to ruin your character's existance) you have to accept sometimes ideas arean't going to take off.

I'm not saying "don't play such bizzarre characters", rather I'm saying "Accept strange ideas may not take off immediately.". I have my mutant werecat girl Thala, I've run here for about six years now and over that time I've had everything from people telling me I'm a snert to people mysteriously offering to cure her overnight and other people not even noticing her bizarre appearance. I've found if you just take it all in your stride, use it as a learning experience and just worrying about enjoying the experience rather than what other people are doing then you'll find out soon enough whether your idea will since or swim.

Some of my characters have been little more than regular humans and gotten wonderous responses from word go, others have been unusual and unnoticed. Such is life. The trick is not to think of it as stifling your creativity but rather as an experiment in social response to your character.

Oh, and if your idea catches on, expect for there to be at least a dozen copies of it floating around by the end of the month. :)
 
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Tharivious_Meliamne

Guest
Tharivious_Meliamne said:
Let me give an example from the chats from the other night to demonstrate, and no, I'm not bitter about it, just find it amusing and fitting to my point.
As I said, not being noticed doesn't bother me, the character was neither a cry for attention or even desired attention. He's one who goes into the tavern, drinks a few mugs of trollslayer, and goes on with it until he gets bored and leaves. He's not a friendly character, and has no desire for friends.

As for an unusual character not having logic to stand on for being in a human establishment, quite the contrary. I never said anything about panicking people, just that it might be something that someone would notice. You wouldn't necessarily be panicked if someone unusual walked into your local bar for the first time, but you would probably take note and at least glance.
Originally posted by Jardel_Karabella
The undead question might very well have been related to a character's ability to sense the presence of undead, perhaps by smell or a sixth sense.
In fact, that was the case, and I give the player all the credit in the world for actually reading a description as a character entered. That's something else that tends to lack in the ISRP, but that's another matter.

As for characters not appearing to notice something, that doesn't mean that the player can't still type in something along the lines of "glances at (insert name) almost unnoticably, no sign of emotion changing at all" or something similar. As a matter of fact, that's how most of my characters will react if they see something that catches their attention, and I do 9 times out of 10 type in that they glance at it.
That being said I would never try anyone how their character should react to anything, even massive groups of people.
And yet implying that someone else is trying to tell people how to play their characters when that person is perfectly alright? I'm not trying to tell people how to play their characters, just suggesting the use of a little more logic in the way things happen. I'm not saying that any of this should be a mandatory way of doing things, but it also might help; I could care less if my characters get noticed, but there are new players out there who might, and when they don't get noticed, they can get alienated.

As for Nocturan being a new concept, not hardly. He was one of my first five characters brought to the site back in Janurary of last year. He's an established part of Apathy, and has been so for the past year. Like I said, I could care less if my characters get noticed, and most of them don't want to be noticed.

The point of this post was not whether or not my character was noticed, that was just an example that stuck out because it happened recently. My point was that logic is sometimes lacking in this site, be it in social interaction, combat, power levels, or what-have-you. It's a matter of playing the characters as realistically as possible in a setting where realism is often questionable.

This thread is a suggestion for more realism, nothing more, nothing less. I thought that the disclaimer I quoted at the top of this post would have prevented it being sidetracked into a "you're just out for attention" thread, but clearly I was wrong.
 
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Jardel_Karabella

Guest
Re: Re: Some Thoughts on Logic

Tharivious_Meliamne said:
As I said, not being noticed doesn't bother me, the character was neither a cry for attention or even desired attention. He's one who goes into the tavern, drinks a few mugs of trollslayer, and goes on with it until he gets bored and leaves. He's not a friendly character, and has no desire for friends.[/b]
Then why'd you write up this thread? Seriously. It's a long post with obvious planning so there had to be a reason.

As for an unusual character not having logic to stand on for being in a human establishment, quite the contrary. I never said anything about panicking people, just that it might be something that someone would notice. You wouldn't necessarily be panicked if someone unusual walked into your local bar for the first time, but you would probably take note and at least glance.
You said you wanted a more logically response, now logic indicates that if something that looks like a huge undead lizardman walks into your town and you are used to associating undead, bigger than usual things and lizardman are all generally known to be very bad in your world then the majority of townsfolk and the guards are not going to just let it wander in to the local tavern for a beer unmolested. Logic in character interaction but not character creation?

If you just want to discuss logic I suggest you find an example which doesn't look so much like the pot calling the kettle black.

In fact, that was the case, and I give the player all the credit in the world for actually reading a description as a character entered. That's something else that tends to lack in the ISRP, but that's another matter.

As for characters not appearing to notice something, that doesn't mean that the player can't still type in something along the lines of "glances at (insert name) almost unnoticably, no sign of emotion changing at all" or something similar. As a matter of fact, that's how most of my characters will react if they see something that catches their attention, and I do 9 times out of 10 type in that they glance at it.
That's a lot of typing to do to acknowledge that you noticed a new guy stepped in the room. Particularly if you're already talking to someone or your busy reading their wierd description and get a good mental picture of what they're like in your head. :) Personally I just put a note in my char's description that he looks at everything. :)

And yet implying that someone else is trying to tell people how to play their characters when that person is perfectly alright? I'm not trying to tell people how to play their characters, just suggesting the use of a little more logic in the way things happen.
Well let's look at this line:
Your character may have been to the Nine Hells and back again, but when he goes to the Crossroads, he's still going to a humanoid tavern. (( Does this mean that other creatures shouldn't be allowed? Far from it, in fact I'd be a hypocrite if I said otherwise. )) Shouldn't even the most hardened individual notice when something out of the normal walks in through the doorway? When something different walks into a room filled with humans and elves, wouldn't they at least glance when that different something enters?
Translates to: "I think logic says you should all have look up and be amazed when something wierd comes in.", which when followed by your example indicates you think should have paid attention to your character.

If not, then why bother with that example?

I'm not saying that any of this should be a mandatory way of doing things, but it also might help; I could care less if my characters get noticed, but there are new players out there who might, and when they don't get noticed, they can get alienated.

As for Nocturan being a new concept, not hardly. He was one of my first five characters brought to the site back in Janurary of last year. He's an established part of Apathy, and has been so for the past year. Like I said, I could care less if my characters get noticed, and most of them don't want to be noticed.
Obviously you do care since you noticed. :)

The point of this post was not whether or not my character was noticed, that was just an example that stuck out because it happened recently. My point was that logic is sometimes lacking in this site, be it in social interaction, combat, power levels, or what-have-you. It's a matter of playing the characters as realistically as possible in a setting where realism is often questionable.
Or perhaps the logic of such a creature coming to a human tavern just for a drink and then leaving? :)

This thread is a suggestion for more realism, nothing more, nothing less. I thought that the disclaimer I quoted at the top of this post would have prevented it being sidetracked into a "you're just out for attention" thread, but clearly I was wrong.
A suggestion for more realism? A strange sort of realism where people pay attention to outlandish characters but these outlandish characters somehow have no trouble getting through the town of Fords Keep for a beer. I think a good suggestion for realism in CRT would be limiting character types to those who could walk through a human settlement full or nice but not particularly well educated /open minded humans and not get lynched personally. :)

If you seriously want to discuss logic and realism on this site then I'm more than happy to do so. However I think you'll need a different example since the current one does boil down to "I brought my freak character in, nobody noticed, they should have noticed." which while it may or may not be a valid logic point discussion is a minefield of problems and misconceptions.
 
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George Washington's Ghost

Guest
I'm not gonna answer for Tharivious, but I think that what he was getting at is the problem a lot of players seem to have with flat out ignoring anyone but those in their "group." As slight as a nod or glance is, its a way of acknowledging that the character is there and it actually (for me anyhow) has a kind of inviting feel- almost an invitation to roleplay further with the person, or if not, at least a sign that they are in fact recognizing your character. When I'm in, I usually try to at least make a glance or some other small action towards random people I see around the room, especially those that might not be talking too much. I admit I don't always get everyone, but when something catches my eye (like a description), I'll usually make some attempt to acknowledge the character.
 
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Tharivious_Meliamne

Guest
Ok, point by point:

Originally posted by Jardel_Karabella
Then why'd you write up this thread? Seriously. It's a long post with obvious planning so there had to be a reason.
I wrote this up because it was planned for a while actually. Not even because of my characters, but because of what I've seen from others. Besides that, I've learned that posting without thinking out wording can cause problems, as I'm sure most also know. :)

You said you wanted a more logically response, now logic indicates that if something that looks like a huge undead lizardman walks into your town and you are used to associating undead, bigger than usual things and lizardman are all generally known to be very bad in your world then the majority of townsfolk and the guards are not going to just let it wander in to the local tavern for a beer unmolested. Logic in character interaction but not character creation?


That's very true. It's not always logical for some things to show up. But it's also a world where teleportation magic is accessible and a means to bypass gate guards, and therefore gain access to such an establishment. And beyond that, there's another means of, surprise surprise, roleplaying opportunities that playing such a character presents: a potential reason for other characters to act on behalf of the local guard and do something. Again, not saying that anyone has to, only pointing out a possibility.

If you just want to discuss logic I suggest you find an example which doesn't look so much like the pot calling the kettle black.


See above. There is a method to my logic that if looked at becomes clear. Playing such a character can provide interesting situations for both that character and those around it, if one thinks about it long enough.

That's a lot of typing to do to acknowledge that you noticed a new guy stepped in the room. Particularly if you're already talking to someone or your busy reading their wierd description and get a good mental picture of what they're like in your head. Personally I just put a note in my char's description that he looks at everything.


It may be a lot of typing, but it also makes the other player feel welcomed at least in some small part. Putting the note in the description works just as well. :) I just prefer to use the type-it-out method to make it more personable, even if the character is not giving a friendly glance. But that's just me.

Well let's look at this line: >snip<

Translates to: "I think logic says you should all have look up and be amazed when something wierd comes in.", which when followed by your example indicates you think should have paid attention to your character.

If not, then why bother with that example?


That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying it's logical to be amazed by something in a world where dragons/ demons/ devils/ angels are fact and not abstract concepts, I'm just saying that it would be noticable if one showed up in an environment where the rest is filled with humanoids. There's a difference between being amazed and taking note; the first is unlikely to be possible among the hardened masses of adventurers, the second is likely to happen even among god-slayers.

Obviously you do care since you noticed.


Just means that I'm a noticer. I pick up on these things. Not just online, but in other matters as well, I know more useless trivia than should be possible because of this. I don't care about my characters being noticed, but I do care about others being alienated just for being new. :)

Or perhaps the logic of such a creature coming to a human tavern just for a drink and then leaving?


The logic behind Nocturan being there? Simple: Guild affiliations. He's associated with Apathy, and Apathy is active in Ford's Keep and in Juxta, therefore, he has reason to be there. While all that's visible is him getting a drink and leaving, he is often doing something more important: Observing. :)

A suggestion for more realism? A strange sort of realism where people pay attention to outlandish characters but these outlandish characters somehow have no trouble getting through the town of Fords Keep for a beer. I think a good suggestion for realism in CRT would be limiting character types to those who could walk through a human settlement full or nice but not particularly well educated /open minded humans and not get lynched personally.


Sorry, I have to oppose that, as much sense as it makes. While limiting such things would be logical, it would also be crippling to creativity and stifle the ideas of many players. I'm far from the only one who comes up with unusual concepts, you yourself mentioned your Thala character as being unusual. It's not a matter of what kinds of characters show up, it's how well they're played and how well thought out their reasons for being there are.

If you seriously want to discuss logic and realism on this site then I'm more than happy to do so. However I think you'll need a different example since the current one does boil down to "I brought my freak character in, nobody noticed, they should have noticed." which while it may or may not be a valid logic point discussion is a minefield of problems and misconceptions.
I'd say it's clear that I do intend to seriously discuss logic and realism. As I said, the Nocturan example was used because it was freshest in my mind, so I typed it up. I think this discussion can work just as easily without an example. So why don't we just drop that example? The point is not related to outlandish characters in the least bit, but to characters in general. Even the most normal, ordinary of characters get ignored at times, as do the outlandish, and in the long run, that can alienate newer players and dissinterest older players who want to get their foot in the door somehow without name dropping their way in.

Originally posted by George Washington's Ghost
I'm not gonna answer for Tharivious, but I think that what he was getting at is the problem a lot of players seem to have with flat out ignoring anyone but those in their "group." As slight as a nod or glance is, its a way of acknowledging that the character is there and it actually (for me anyhow) has a kind of inviting feel- almost an invitation to roleplay further with the person, or if not, at least a sign that they are in fact recognizing your character. When I'm in, I usually try to at least make a glance or some other small action towards random people I see around the room, especially those that might not be talking too much. I admit I don't always get everyone, but when something catches my eye (like a description), I'll usually make some attempt to acknowledge the character.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I would just like to point out that I did not bring the word "group" into this discussion. People do get ignored, both new and veteran alike, and just providing some acknoledgement can make the person feel more welcome in the chatroom and less like an outsider.
 
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Jaya Ballard Balla'th

Guest
Your ability to RP and how good of a player you are are effectively cancelled out by playing a unrealistic characters, no matter how creative.

It isn't logical that the creature would be outright ignored or unnoticed, yes.

But as has been said, it sure as hell isn't logical that said-creature would make it unchallenged to a tavern for a beer and wander back out, let alone would it GO TO a tavern in the first place.

Logic holds no place in ISRP. I'm not ranting that I don't get approached by characters with my charismatic human bardess, or average-Jill elfess. Those of us that exercise some level of logic can get the same short end of the stick as illogical characters.

**Just seconds Jardel and goes to bed..**
 

Dontella

Villager
*Ahems*

Alright.. here's my bit, in my most humble opinion.. don't read if you don't wish to be mature about this topic.

I have summed up the whole of Thar's posts to reach the conclusion : All characters, should notice all other characters. They should acknowledge the presence of all the others present, even if it is a mere single sentence upon their arrival..

Well since this is "supposed" to be a discussion of logic.. let us view this then, from a logical standpoint, shall we?

Point 1- Not everyone has time to notice every other person i nthe room with them. Real life or events taking place behind the screen, can distract a player, so that they can not always respond to every minute or obscure detail taking place around them. One can not account for the circumstances of Real Life, which may at any given moment require more attention, than the monitor before a person.

To suggest that everyone notice everyone else, is to disregard the point that perhaps someone had to go AFK without announcing it, or has been distracted by a conversation for a while.. Therefore, logically a person can never be assumed to be watching the screen at ALL times.

Point 2- Each and every character has their own personality, values, beliefs, abilites, experiances.. and so forth. It is these qualities that makes each chracter seperate from all other characters.

This established, no one can dictate how, or even if a chracter will react to the events and persons that reveal themselves in the ISRP rooms. While some may be in awe, others might simply just pay it no mind at all.. having seen far too many of the fantastic and horrible within the last month to find anything shocking at all by now. Therefore, logically to assume that one will be noticed, is to become egocentric, and assume that because you think you are special, that everyon else will also.

Also, Logically it does not allow for a character to make decisions for themselves or the circumstances at hand..

Finally..

Point 3- The ISRP rooms, provide for a chat and role playing atmosphere for all chracters, with the provison of the Freedom of Destiny.

Freedom of Destiny, allows each player to decide for themselves, how and when, or if, their character will act, react or even respond to the environ around them.

Therefore, Logically, to demand that all characters be noticed and acknowledged.. entirely disregards the Freedom of Destiny concept. Therefore, logically, demading attention and notice, violates the site code and regulations upon which it was founded.

So.. those who would be purely logical, in order to receive more attention.. would also violate those tenets upon which the wizards chat site operates.

And Violating those tenets of the site as a whole, just for popularity.. is NOT LOGICAL in any form.
 
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George Washington's Ghost

Guest
Lol, ok. This has nothing to do with freedom of destiny, its perfectly logical (and certainly not unreasonable) for someone to expect AT LEAST ONE PERSON in a room full of people to react in some small way to their character entering. That's just common sense- 15 people in the room and not one of them even makes a nod to your character? That would mean that every one of them is either AFK, choosing to observe their right to "freedom of destiny" and not responding at all, or just lazy. THIS seems to me to go more against all rational logic to me... I mean that's not even giving the person a 1 in 15 chance of being noticed.
 
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Jaya Ballard Balla'th

Guest
Now, when he got in there, the room was quiet, maybe four or five people in there tops, and very little was going on, three of the characters were almost silent the entire time he was in, which was about 20-30 minutes.
Why, no, I do think it's unreasonable to assume someone would respond to an exceedingly odd character in this situation! :)
 

Nevine

Villager
Originally posted by George Washington's Ghost
That would mean that every one of them is either AFK, choosing to observe their right to "freedom of destiny" and not responding at all, or just lazy.
Now, this begs the question.. Are they lazy for not responding to the person in question or is that person lazy for expecting everyone else to make the first "move".

Regardless, it has everything to do with Freedom of Destiny, because it pertains to choices made by the player. I can choose to acknowledge everyone, no one, only people that come up to me, or people I know specifically. It's all my call, as it is everyone elses. Maybe my character would take note of an individual, but I perhaps wouldn't want anything to do with them.
 
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Tharivious_Meliamne

Guest
Dontella said:
*Ahems*

Alright.. here's my bit, in my most humble opinion.. don't read if you don't wish to be mature about this topic.
Fair enough, I intend to be fully mature about this, just so that you know. :)
I have summed up the whole of Thar's posts to reach the conclusion : All characters, should notice all other characters. They should acknowledge the presence of all the others present, even if it is a mere single sentence upon their arrival..
Not so. I am not saying that all characters have to acknowledge all other characters. I am saying that at least some should, by sheer law of averages, some characters should at least notice such things.

Well since this is "supposed" to be a discussion of logic.. let us view this then, from a logical standpoint, shall we?

Point 1- Not everyone has time to notice every other person i nthe room with them. Real life or events taking place behind the screen, can distract a player, so that they can not always respond to every minute or obscure detail taking place around them. One can not account for the circumstances of Real Life, which may at any given moment require more attention, than the monitor before a person.

To suggest that everyone notice everyone else, is to disregard the point that perhaps someone had to go AFK without announcing it, or has been distracted by a conversation for a while.. Therefore, logically a person can never be assumed to be watching the screen at ALL times.
That's very true, I agree with this point. One cannot account for the OOC aspect of things, and one cannot expect it to be known upon entering a room who is and is not AFK unless you see them posting to the room.

Point 2- Each and every character has their own personality, values, beliefs, abilites, experiances.. and so forth. It is these qualities that makes each chracter seperate from all other characters.

This established, no one can dictate how, or even if a chracter will react to the events and persons that reveal themselves in the ISRP rooms. While some may be in awe, others might simply just pay it no mind at all.. having seen far too many of the fantastic and horrible within the last month to find anything shocking at all by now. Therefore, logically to assume that one will be noticed, is to become egocentric, and assume that because you think you are special, that everyon else will also.

Also, Logically it does not allow for a character to make decisions for themselves or the circumstances at hand..
I agree with this point as well, and as I stated in the first post, characters in the ISRP area are equally likely to be hardened planeswalkers who have seen just about everything as they are to be a standard low to mid level character. And again, I'm not saying that anyone needs to be awestruck by a sight that walks into the place, or even that they need to show fear/ malice/ surprise/ etc... just that an acknowledgement of the character would be something that might show that people are actually paying attention.

Finally..

Point 3- The ISRP rooms, provide for a chat and role playing atmosphere for all chracters, with the provison of the Freedom of Destiny.

Freedom of Destiny, allows each player to decide for themselves, how and when, or if, their character will act, react or even respond to the environ around them.
Again, I agree completely. Every individual player has the right to decide how their character reacts to something, I have yet to say anything to the contrary. My point in the matter is that logically speaking, at least someone would notice something out of the ordinary, even if the masses did not.

Therefore, Logically, to demand that all characters be noticed and acknowledged.. entirely disregards the Freedom of Destiny concept. Therefore, logically, demading attention and notice, violates the site code and regulations upon which it was founded.

So.. those who would be purely logical, in order to receive more attention.. would also violate those tenets upon which the wizards chat site operates.

And Violating those tenets of the site as a whole, just for popularity.. is NOT LOGICAL in any form.
Again, I am not 'demanding' anything. I am not saying that all characters have to acknowledge all others. I am suggesting that perhaps once in a while players at least give a glance at others, because it would make those who do not yet know anybody feel more welcome.

This discussion was not posted out of any motivation for popularity, if that is what you were implying by that. Characters who become popular become so on their own, usually by approaching others and getting to know them. Likewise with players, and thereby posters on these boards.

I am not saying anything about breaking the Freedom of Destiny that players have as far as how their characters interact with others, merely suggesting that by giving even a slight acknowledgement to another player can make this place more welcoming to others. It is the player's choice how their characters act, and it should be thier choice. However, that does not mean that the players should become exclusionists that don't notice others.

My characters who stand off on their own and away from others might not be looking to make new friends, but think more along the lines of a new player who might be looking to make his first acquantaince in the chatrooms and isn't sure how to do so. Such a player might feel invisible if no one notices them, and if it continues, the entire community could easily lose a potentially good member.

That is my point.

Originally posted by Jaya Ballard Balla'th
Why, no, I do think it's unreasonable to assume someone would respond to a wacko character in this situation!
And again, I repeat that I do not expect anyone to stand up and take notice. My point in that part of the example is that it was a slow night in the room, the screen was not scrolling at a fast pace, and there was logically plenty of time for someone to at least glance, but that no one did.
 
T

Tharivious_Meliamne

Guest
*Thanks a friend for pointing out the added part of this post*

Jaya Ballard Balla'th said:
Your ability to RP and how good of a player you are are effectively cancelled out by playing a unrealistic characters, no matter how creative.
That's an overly broad statement to make considering the number of very well played 'unrealistic' characters around. To say that is to say that a fair number of the welcomed beings in the tavern and emporium should be turned away. I won't name names for the sake of not dragging people in without knowing it, but it would affect some of the best players around and insult their ability.

It isn't logical that the creature would be outright ignored or unnoticed, yes.
(( Editted to add this: )) Good to see some agreement to this.

But as has been said, it sure as hell isn't logical that said-creature would make it unchallenged to a tavern for a beer and wander back out, let alone would it GO TO a tavern in the first place.
Really? A character raised in a human city and trained in a human city, and formerly employed by a human city would be doing the illogical to want to go to a human tavern? If I felt like posting the entire history of the character, I would, but I don't have the desire to do so for this thread alone, but trust me, he has his reasons. And beyond that, I've mentioned his guild ties, he has plenty reason to be there, and means of getting in and out of the town as well. While that does not speak for all unusual characters, it does speak for my own.

Logic holds no place in ISRP. I'm not ranting that I don't get approached by characters with my charismatic human bardess, or average-Jill elfess. Those of us that exercise some level of logic can get the same short end of the stick as illogical characters.
And again, as I have stated in each one of my above posts, this is not about my character not being approached. As for the more standard characters, I agree, they too get the short end of the stick, and that is more in line with my point than the parts about unusual ones. Regardless of what someone is playing, a little acknowledgement goes a long way.

**Just seconds Jardel and goes to bed..**
Glad to see that you added more to the post than just this one line. It is much appreciated, even if I do not agree with all of it.
 

Nevine

Villager
Originally posted by Tharivious_Meliamne
*snip, snip* ...but think more along the lines of a new player who might be looking to make his first acquantaince in the chatrooms and isn't sure how to do so. Such a player might feel invisible if no one notices them, and if it continues, the entire community could easily lose a potentially good member.

That is my point.
I'm all for teaching people about ISRP and helping them learn the rules. Sometimes people just need to take initiative though. They shouldn't be glanced at just because they are new and need someone to hold their hand in the big scawy chat room. (typo intentional)

Originally posted by Tharivious_Meliamne
*snip, snip* ...just that an acknowledgement of the character would be something that might show that people are actually paying attention.
Let's say everyone in a room..or heck..half the people in the room simply acknowledged each person that entered, outlandish or not. To me, that's a bunch of needless spam for a handful glances. I've said this before in another thread when you had something similar to say.. Sometimes glances, etc. can come across as open invitations and maybe that isn't what you wanted. If you're going to "acknowledge" something, it should be because the character (and the player) are interested in interacting. "Acknowledging" just for the sake of doing so (because something happenes, [insert whatever reason], etc) comes off as micromanagement, it's something that could almost be assumed.

Originally posted by Tharivious_Meliamne
And again, I repeat that I do not expect anyone to stand up and take notice. My point in that part of the example is that it was a slow night in the room, the screen was not scrolling at a fast pace, and there was logically plenty of time for someone to at least glance, but that no one did.
I have to ask, how many individual people did you glance at? Beyond a general "surveys the room" or something broad and general like that.

Originally posted by Tharivious_Meliamne
That's an overly broad statement to make considering the number of very well played 'unrealistic' characters around. To say that is to say that a fair number of the welcomed beings in the tavern and emporium should be turned away. I won't name names for the sake of not dragging people in without knowing it, but it would affect some of the best players around and insult their ability.
Such characters aren't well player because they are "unrealistic", it's because of who the character is and what they are about. "Monstrous" creatures aren't character concepts, as above, it all comes down who they are inside. Shock value only goes so far, there has to be more to a character.
 
T

Tharivious_Meliamne

Guest
Nevine said:
I'm all for teaching people about ISRP and helping them learn the rules. Sometimes people just need to take initiative though. They shouldn't be glanced at just because they are new and need someone to hold their hand in the big scawy chat room. (typo intential)
I agree completely, just being new is not enough to warrant a glance and that new players need to take some initiative, but it can still make someone feel less lost if they have no idea what to do yet. However, I still consider it to be worthwhile to help out a new player that looks like they don't know just where to start.

Let's say everyone in a room..or heck..half the people in the room simply acknowledged each person that entered, outlandish or not. To me, that's a bunch of needless spam for a handful glances. I've said this before in another thread when you had something similar to say.. Sometimes glances, etc. can come across as open invitations and maybe that isn't what you wanted. If you're going to "acknowledge" something, it should be because the character (and the player) are interested in interacting. "Acknowledging" just for the sake of doing so (because something happenes, [insert whatever reason], etc) comes off as micromanagement, it's something that could almost be assumed.
I recall reading such a statement from you from that thread. I still agree to an extent that for some players it might be taken the wrong way, and it does become a matter of timing and wording at certain points.
As for every person acknowledging every individual that enters the room every single time, yes, that is a bit excessive, I agree with you on that point. It isn't necessarry to glance every time someone arrives, what I am suggesting is perhaps a glance the first time a character sees a new character around. Nothing major, even just a one time acknowledgement is a sign that the person is noticed. And in a full room, it's much more likely that not everyone will even see the person enter with the rate the screen can scroll past.

I have to ask, how many individual people did you glance at? Beyond a general "surveys the room" or something broad and general like that.
With this instance, as with nearly all instances of one of my characters entering a room, he glanced around the room slowly as he made his way inside. No one else entered the room while I was in it. I make individual glances when a character enters whenever I can do so and it would be logical to do so.
Admittedly, I'm not perfect in this aspect of my opinion either. I don't manage to nod to every new character that I see around with all of my screen names. Especially when the room is filled and the screen is scrolling at top speed. Heck, on this computer hitting Backspace can take 5 seconds to show on my screen when in the chats ( Not an exaggeration :( ), so there are absolutely some that I miss due to a large number of people in the room.

Such characters aren't well player because they are "unrealistic", it's because of who the character is and what they are about. "Monstrous" creatures aren't character concepts, as above, it all comes down who they are inside. Shock value only goes so far, there has to be more to a character.
Agreed, playing a "monstrous" character just to play a monster is not a complete character concept in the purest sense. It is in how the character is played and the personality it is given that makes the character, not what it is. The Nocturan character that I mentioned came from a table top campaign that we played and he got retired from. I developed him from there for about a year before even getting a computer and finding the site. Again, I don't speak for all unusual characters' players, but only for myself in this matter.
 
J

Jardel_Karabella

Guest
It may be a lot of typing, but it also makes the other player feel welcomed at least in some small part. Putting the note in the description works just as well. I just prefer to use the type-it-out method to make it more personable, even if the character is not giving a friendly glance. But that's just me.
Well that has to do social standards, intraversion, extraversion and the dynamics of the group. All of which are human characteristics and have nothing to do with logic.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying it's logical to be amazed by something in a world where dragons/ demons/ devils/ angels are fact and not abstract concepts, I'm just saying that it would be noticable if one showed up in an environment where the rest is filled with humanoids. There's a difference between being amazed and taking note; the first is unlikely to be possible among the hardened masses of adventurers, the second is likely to happen even among god-slayers.
And as I've pointed out, it has been a long time since CRT constituited "an area filled with humanoids.". I've coming here for six years or so and even then there were werebeasts, dragons and celestials hanging out in the tavern.

Sorry, I have to oppose that, as much sense as it makes. While limiting such things would be logical, it would also be crippling to creativity and stifle the ideas of many players. I'm far from the only one who comes up with unusual concepts, you yourself mentioned your Thala character as being unusual. It's not a matter of what kinds of characters show up, it's how well they're played and how well thought out their reasons for being there are.
Well this is the long standing deal that runs with all characters in the ISRP area whether they be mundane human fighters or celestial archmagi: Provided it doesn't violate the CoC you can have whatever type of character you want and I will acknowledge/interact with them how I want. I won't expect you to create a specific type of character and you won't expect me to go out of my way to make your character feel special.

It swings both ways, if there's someone who doesn't want to RP with my reality-heavy characters because it's too much reality for them then that's fine too. Likewise they're also free to not RP with Thala 'cause they don't want to have such a thing become commonplace to their character.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I would just like to point out that I did not bring the word "group" into this discussion. People do get ignored, both new and veteran alike, and just providing some acknoledgement can make the person feel more welcome in the chatroom and less like an outsider.
Well, like I said, that's an entirely different issue not relating to logic in the slightest.

This has nothing to do with freedom of destiny, its perfectly logical (and certainly not unreasonable) for someone to expect AT LEAST ONE PERSON in a room full of people to react in some small way to their character entering.
In my experience that's really pot luck. It's not like we're going to set up a roster of room greeters and it really depends on what the crowd is like and who's there. Depending on what bars/clubs/establishments I go in and how I go in I personally can get either looked at by a small crowd of people or ignored completely.

With most of my characters there's days they won't get a second glance from the patrons and others when they need to beat people off with a stick. It's just dependent on the crowd on and the situation.

I agree completely, just being new is not enough to warrant a glance and that new players need to take some initiative, but it can still make someone feel less lost if they have no idea what to do yet. However, I still consider it to be worthwhile to help out a new player that looks like they don't know just where to start.
Well that's not going to be helped by all glancing business. I'm not going to glance at someone I don't particularly intend to RP with and I'm not going to judge whether I particularly want to RP with them based off a one line emote of them entering and their description. If I did I'd either ignore everyone or get swamped with more people than I could keep track of.

Being a newbie is hard, we certainly want to discourage actively hostile behaviour towards them, however we also have to acknowledge that newbies need to find their own niche. A newbie who brings in Slaadi bard and plays a very high fantast/low reality campaign probably better off not being glanced at by a human fighter from a low fantasy/high reality campaign since he'd probably wonder why they couldn't agree on anything (and potentially blame himself).

Newbies, like everyone else, need to find their own group or be found by it thorugh their roleplaying. Walking through the door doesn't tell us anything about you and so doesn't really warrant any special notice from anyone.
 
F

Fenmarel

Guest
This is a subject that has been beaten to a pulp in the past, present and will continue on in the future.

If you take how things go in the tavern in account it is logical to expect most if not all people to ignore a new 'odd' character. Why is that? Simply because most of the time if you acknowledge any type of character you are going to end up having to hear some boring life story that your character most likely won't give a rat's arse about. With most of the 'odd' characters these life stories are so far fetched it makes many players just want to puke. Is that using ooc knowledge ic? Maybe.....that is if you haven't had a character see that very same thing over and over again.

Personally I rarely talk to the 'odd' creatures. I play characters that are bigotted towards 'odd' creatures like those template creatures that run amuck. Now I do have Fen and one of my other characters talk to the 'odd' creatures but they are special cases. Meaning they have seen alot more than my other characters and are more willing to give someone a chance. Now that don't mean Fen won't bad mouth someone the first time they do something he don't agree with either. ;)

Alot of players on this site are just sick and tired of the 'odd' characters. Like it was mentioned already, how would these characters get to the tavern in the first place without being lynched? Even I play a drow but let's use them as an example. The Greyhawk drow make the FR drow look like boy and girl scouts. If the citizens see them coming they are either going to wet their pants or try to get a group together and slaughter them, most likely both heh. Even in FR drow don't walk openly because they will be persecuted regardless unless they have the name of Drizzt and even he can't just walk into a small town without some problem unless they already know him there and still he has some problems.

I personally will continue to go about as I do and for the most part ignore the 'odd' characters. That doesn't mean when I see them I put them on my iggie list but that I won't acknowledge their presence unless I am forced into it. In that case I will acknowledge them and remove myself from the situation. Now that doesn't mean every single time it is going to happen but the vast majority of the time it will. I know that many won't like that type of attitude but oh well. My outlook on that is at least I can be honest and not try to talk in circles when asked the reasons I do something which very few can do be truthful and say the same.

Forgive me but I feel the need to go a tad off subject here so please bear with me.


I hear alot of people whining and complaining that they are called a snert or powergamer for playing characters with a base race that is powerful and adding a couple of templates to it. Now let's look that that. A power gamer is a person that chooses to play characters that when totalled up are very powerful compared to the 'norm'. I would have to put the powerbase of this site at over 20th lvl if you look at it from a D&D standpoint. If you play a character that is way over 20th lvl yes you are going to be labelled a powergamer by those that don't know you and maybe by those that know you behind your back. For the longest time players have been making the super powerful 'odd' characters by adding templates and magical items, psionics and all other kinds of idiotic stuff but whine and complain when people bad mouth them for it. If you go against the grain you are going to be ridiculed by both friends and strangers. That is a fact of life so suck it up and move on.

If you want people to acknowledge your characters a good rule of thumb is don't play drow with wings that are blade singers/clerics/order of the bow initiates/arcane archers/epic lvl ftrs or half dragon/vampire/half drow/were creatures or anything along those lines. Sound ridiculous? Well seen alot of those okay just one of the first type I think.

As usual Jard you are speaking my thoughts for me keep it up!!!

Jason
 

Dontella

Villager
*leans on something*

AHem, once again.

Tharivious, I feel the entire reason you posted this thread and topic, is because your character wasn't immediately acknowledged by any other character.

To me this thread and topic has nothing to do with logic, reason, or anything else..

It has to do with you complaining about how you aren't accepted because you played something odd.

Well you are free to play something Odd.. and I am free to ignore it. That is the way of the world, and the chatrooms also.

Stop complaining about what you can not control, and stop trying to insists that everyone thinks alike, and is all accepting.

Each character and player is different, and that may lead to disagreement or conflict. Deal with it, but please.. no more posts and complaints, all it does is fill up the boards and make everything worse on a whole.

This is my last post on this topic, and I am no longer going to pay it attention or mind.... as I think the entire reason behind writing it childish and whiny..

Have a Good Day.
 

Nugan

Villager
I have a question:

Why is this thread getting so nasty?

Yes, this topic has been around the block a couple of times, but that's only a reason not to post on it, not a reason for everyone (on both sides) to start going at each other's throats.

"Logic", in my humble opinion, is a moot point in ISRP anyway. Is magic logical? Is a two-ton creature that can fly and breath fire without its bone-structure collapsing or its internal organs being destroyed logical? Is a Drow Vampire Half-Dragon Paladin follower of Torm logical? Is this arguement logical?

Or better yet:

Is any of this worth further eroding the "community" in Wizards.community?

I say, a huge "No!"
 

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