Some Thoughts...

[Scribble]

Ok take any comments I make about 4e with a grain of salt, as they say... I haven't seen it yet, so I could be eating my words soon... (Maybe it's the bees knees)

But does it seem to anyone like 4e is more about a new crop of designers wanting their input more then changes that really "needed" to be made? Kind of like when you get a new boss, and he/she needs to show off his/her new ideas to make the company work "better..."

Some of the options in Book of Nine Swords might have been awesome... But do they NEED to be core? Will it really make the game function better?

The ideas they have been pushing for monsters lately with the monster redesigns and the stuff talked about in the making of MM5 articles... Some of the concepts are interesting... But does the Orc or the Goblin NEED to be redone in order to utilize the new concept? Will that make the game better?

I'm not trying to bash 4e and say it will be bad... Just a rumination...

 

[Abisashi]

I believe all of the lead designers have been around since 3.5, so it seems unlikely.

The way they have been talking about 4th edition sounds like they are making real improvements to me, but of course we will need more details before we can really know.

 

[Scribble]

I believe all of the lead designers have been around since 3.5, so it seems unlikely.

The way they have been talking about 4th edition sounds like they are making real improvements to me, but of course we will need more details before we can really know.

Well, again, like I said, I'm not going to come out and say I HATE 4e... I don't I haven't seen it yet, so how could I?

My comment is just like some of the stuff seems weird to change... The old Why Fix It if It Ain't Broke approach...

I can understand how they feel AOO and Grapple needed updating... People grumbled about those constantly...

And again I think a lot of what they were doing with Monster Manual 5 seemed cool... But I don't really see the need to redo the basic monsters in a whole new edition...

Are they really BETTER then monsters so far?

Did races really NEED racial level like abilities?

Seems like this time around someone decided that instead of more optional books, they'd just make a whole 4e out of it...

(I understand the WOTC is a business idea and all that but still...)

 

[WhatGravitas]

But does it seem to anyone like 4e is more about a new crop of designers wanting their input more then changes that really "needed" to be made? Kind of like when you get a new boss, and he/she needs to show off his/her new ideas to make the company work "better..."

I think it's not about the designers, but rather about the fact, that RPGs evolved a lot in the last years:

1) A huge heap of d20-based stuff was released, and some were pretty innovative (Arcana Evolved, True20, Mutants & Masterminds, Iron Heroes - to name a few).
2) A heap of D&D-stuff was released (Bo9S, Warlock, Reserve feats).
3) Even the original designers, like Monte (read about spellcasting, rounds, and feats) have changed their mind or got new ideas.

Or, as Monte put it in the second article, much more eloquently, than I could say it:

Most of the time, my philosophy as a game designer was, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think good game design has been hurt over the years by changes that game designers implemented to fix problems no one was complaining about.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Scribble]

I think it's not about the designers, but rather about the fact, that RPGs evolved a lot in the last years:

1) A huge heap of d20-based stuff was released, and some were pretty innovative (Arcana Evolved, True20, Mutants & Masterminds, Iron Heroes - to name a few).
2) A heap of D&D-stuff was released (Bo9S, Warlock, Reserve feats).
3) Even the original designers, like Monte (read about spellcasting, rounds, and feats) have changed their mind or got new ideas.

Or, as Monte put it in the second article, much more eloquently, than I could say it:


Cheers, LT.

I understand what you're saying... Maybe that's it... Maybe really the new edition was needed simply because the "retakes" of the D20 system were gaining ground. So in a way the whole OGL D20 open game thing did what it was designed to do... Created an environment that allowed for new ideas and concepts...

But again it still points to the idea that the ideas didn't need to be fixed... they just took what would ordinarily be Optional ideas, and decided to make them core...

(the last quote by Monte is sort of my point... None of the things they seem to be "fixing" were broke... with the possible exception of AOO and Grapple... They just seem to have their own idea on how it should be done...)

 

[Mouseferatu]

Define "need."

Did classes like fighters and rogues need abilities to choose from, like clerics and wizards have? No, probably not.

But will it make a better game, and make those classes more fun to play? I think it will.

The problem with "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is that it leads to stagnation, and it prevents designers from ever making things better.

"Good enough" isn't good enough, if there are ways to make it better.

 

[Keldryn]

There are probably also a lot of ideas being worked into 4th Edition which were discussed when designing 3rd Edition, but were left out because they were too radical a change or couldn't be fully developed in the time that they had.

Oh, and this "$E" stuff is almost as clever and original as "T$R" and "Micro$oft". I am totally blown away by such awesomely creative and clever wit.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

But does it seem to anyone like 4e is more about a new crop of designers wanting their input more then changes that really "needed" to be made?

No.

 

[Branduil]

I would say the magic system is pretty broken as it is. Wizards are far underpowered at lower levels, and far overpowered at higher levels.

 

[WayneLigon]

3) Even the original designers, like Monte

What we created, inadvertently, was a sort of halfway point toward the real solution, still hanging on too much to the older design paradigms.

I think that quote sums up my feelings. The designers also know that they can't push things too far, too fast. I suspect there are long-range plans for what will shape the game ten, fifteen years down the road, and 3/3.5/4 are speedbumps along the way to that time.