Something I'm not quite understanding about the will save...

[Kae'Yoss]

Take a look at Albert Einstein's hair. Intelligence and good hygiene are not interdependent.

I was referring to the forgetting to bathe. That's different from not caring to bathe.

You're nit-picking the example instead of addressing the point.

He gave examples for his point, and I'm adressing the examples - ant the point in general, below.

My point being, if an adventurer smelled worse than usual, that's a perfectly valid explanation for a low charisma score.

Define "usual" for an adventurer.

If you give penalties for less-than-perfect hygiene, you'll have to penaltize most of them on some point....

I guess that's the crux of our difference, then. The first time it came up in game (a player being very suave without the charisma score to back it,) I'd ask the player about it. "Hey, Bob. You sure sound slick there. Are you certain that's what Gorthag says? You'll need to square this low charisma score with me then. If he's such a smooth-talker, what makes Gorthag so un-charismatic?"

Rather than assuming something about the PC, I'd prefer to simply ask the player. Sometimes, a player will say something totally out of character and, when reminded, switch into gear. And sometimes it brings up aspects of the PC that the player simply hadn't thought about previously...

I can only draw upon my personal experience. Funnily, though, the ones to totally disregard CHA were usually guys that have played for quite some time, and have played the part of GM. The newbies care about it most of the time. And so if they don't act like having bad CHA in any way, I can be pretty sure they're abusing CHA, instead of just not understanding the rules. (many of them equalize cha with size of breasts or sure physical attractiveness)