Something I'm not quite understanding about the will save...

[Pax]

That is not the point...

Bye
Thanee

Thanee, XP bonusses for good RP serve to encourage just that, good RP.

Frankly, if ALL I wanted was to go hack some monsters apart, I'd re-install Diablo2 and go on Battlenet again. *shrug*

I also want to ROLEplay; I like when my fellow players are encouraged to do just that, ROLEplay.

The Ravenloft d20 campaign I play in biweekly, we get a certain amount of XP for showing up and playing reasonably well. We're also getting regular bonusses for playing VERY well.

The XP isn't tied to the threat levels we face, at all. It's based on good role playing; and so far, it has been without a doubt THE singly BEST gaming I've done, in well over twenty years of playing RPGs. I don't feel cheated of XP for not beign awarded so-and-so exact many XP based on CR of what we face (despite often being a bit rules lawyery); in fact, I feel ENRICHED not to care about "hmm, I need another encounter to go up a level".

Instead, if I don't feel my PC's level isup to the tasks ahead, I might simply have my character spend extra time "preparing" for those tasks ... resulting in an extra session or two, and maybe toppiing my XP off enough for one more level. *shrug*

"Good RP awards" encourage good roleplay, and encourages FUN for the whole group -- if the award is given relative to the known skill and ability of the player. Obviously, the introverted newbie will be judged more generously than the jaded veteran of a hundred campaigns.

But "good RP awards" encourage good RP ... it's a simple concept. Just like high awards for bagging tough monsters, encourages going after tough monsters.

 

[mmu1]

Pax:

Right, so Intelligence determines what you can theoretically say, but the moment you actually open your mouth Charisma somehow takes over, and if it's low, you somehow loose the ability to speak in words of more than two syllables?

A barbarian that roars a "polite" question at someone, or makes a fool of himself is basically going to have the same reaction as if he did it perfectly? Interesting way of running your NPC's.

I'd be inclined to think not getting the information, or getting inaccurate information as the person points vaguely over their shouler when trying to get away would be a suitable consequence of flubbing a Charisma check, but I suppose in games where people do real role-playing, any half-orc that dared to act in a semi-intelligent manner would end up at the very least get dragged off by the guards, if not executed outright.

If anyone played up the benefits of high Charisma as much as some people do low Charisma, Bards wouldn't be able to get from A to B, because every time they asked for directions there'd be people dropping down to their knees begging to shower them with gold and offer them sexual favors...

 

[AEtherfyre]

If anyone played up the benefits of high Charisma as much as some people do low Charisma, Bards wouldn't be able to get from A to B, because every time they asked for directions there'd be people dropping down to their knees begging to shower them with gold and offer them sexual favors...

Hardly. Diplomacy only happens when the bard takes action; otherwise, whare's the skill check? No, high charisma characters only get the sexual favors when they ask for them.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, high charisma characters only get the sexual favors when they ask for them.

Heh. Which reminds me of a Spider Robinson quote...

"... what Donald Trump is alleged to have said to the gorgeous blonde stranger who offered to perform an intimacy upon him in a crowded elevator - What's in it for me?"

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

Pax:

Right, so Intelligence determines what you can theoretically say, but the moment you actually open your mouth Charisma somehow takes over, and if it's low, you somehow loose the ability to speak in words of more than two syllables?

Did I say that? No.

But consider: if you're very smart, you might know a gazillion ways to politely say "please" ...but you would never USE any of them, in a million years, if you had an abhorrently low Charisma score.

Knowing the word, and ever being inclined to use it, are two wholly different matters, entirely.

A barbarian that roars a "polite" question at someone, or makes a fool of himself is basically going to have the same reaction as if he did it perfectly? Interesting way of running your NPC's.

"Roaring out" otherwise-polite conversation might qualify for the failure on the Diplomacy/Charisma check. Usually, having some experience with smart-but-impolite people, I tend to default to the "didn't even bother to TRY" presumption.

I'd be inclined to think not getting the information, or getting inaccurate information as the person points vaguely over their shouler when trying to get away would be a suitable consequence of flubbing a Charisma check, but I suppose in games where people do real role-playing, any half-orc that dared to act in a semi-intelligent manner would end up at the very least get dragged off by the guards, if not executed outright.

Failing to get theinformation,or gettign only partial information, would be the result ofa MILD failure. Fail bya LONG way, and the person you've inquired of may feel angered/threatened/offended/ahatever. They mightnot attack you, but they might tell the next town Watchman he sees about the nasty half-orc that "accosted" him on that dark street a couple minutes ago ...

If anyone played up the benefits of high Charisma as much as some people do low Charisma, Bards wouldn't be able to get from A to B, because every time they asked for directions there'd be people dropping down to their knees begging to shower them with gold and offer them sexual favors...

No; you're polarising the comparison far too much.

You're assuming my position is "the low charisma character will be routinely hated, reviled, and even hunted, everwyehre he goes" ... which is not true.

You then erroneously reverse that to reach anincorrect assumption as regards the effect of high charisma.

The truth is, low-charisma people tend to get met with less civility and politeness in turn; people tend to be a bit short with them, or a bit less helpful, or the like. Depending on HOW low their charisma is, is how pronounced this effect is. Also depending on their race, similar to the Outcast Rating of Ravenloft d20.

Someone with a 4 or 5 or even 6 charisma, simply WILL NOT be exceptionally polite. THEIR "really polite way to say something" is what an average-charisma characetr would call "neither polite, no impolite" ...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Someone with a 4 or 5 or even 6 charisma, simply WILL NOT be exceptionally polite. THEIR "really polite way to say something" is what an average-charisma characetr would call "neither polite, no impolite" ...

I dunno. Off the top of my head, I can imagine two PCs with a low charisma who have no problem being polite.

Yungar the Mighty (INT 20, CHA 5) is a half-orc with a lot on his mind. He's big, strong, and knows what he wants to say. When he steps up to the barkeeper, he exclaims, "a glass of wine would go over quite well, my good sir. And perhaps a small modicum of information as well." It's a good line, and would have gone over well, if only he'd remembered to bathe that week...

Emmy the Wise (WIS 20, CHA 5) is an elven priestess who is wise in the ways of man. She's been to hundreds of bars, and talked with hundreds of barkeeps. "I'd be grateful if I could have a room tonight, Innkeep," she says one night, "and if you're willing, we might discuss some of the rumors around town." Her words are fine enough, but the way her eyes seem to look through him instead of at him, as if seeing some faraway place, give him the creeps...

Charisma dictates how people react to a PC, but not why they do so. So if a half-orc in my campaign wanted to be a polite, well-spoken half-orc, I wouldn't bat an eye. The player would simply have to come up with a reason why the PC is uncharismatic. It could be smell, appearance, attitude. Anything. It doesn't have to be because the PC is impolite.

Heck, one of the admins, Piratecat, ran a druid with low-CHA as a slow-talker, if I recall correctly. Tended to drawl and bore the people he talked to. Didn't mean he couldn't be polite...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

KaeYoss:

No, I want characters with low Charisma to be able to say what their players want them to say - it's as simple as that.

I also have no intention of making my players tie their entire personality to a single STATISTIC, vastly oversimplyfing role-playing interaction. If their characters have a low Charisma, they'll definitely be penalized, but I'm certainly not going to stop them from trying to get around it with persistent, clever or creative role-playing.

NOWHERE did I say that just because the low-charisma barbarian can try to be polite, he'll automatically be successful. I even gave examples of how his speech might come out, which you chose to ignore and instead spout nonsense about what characters I must choose to play.

Again, even if you force your players to play one-dimensional characters, whose social interactions are dictated almost exclusively by one ability, you don't get to put words into their characters mouth, and flat out decide what they're saying.

OK. I think we're both a little over the top: Totally ignoring Cha is totally wrong, as is giving to much credit to it. The right way is, as so often, in the middle: I like your procedure where you penalize them for low charisma (and I'm sure you'll give them bonues for high charisma), it seems a good balance.

And it's not only one ability. Charisma isn't the only value that determines charisma, that's true. But it's one of the more important (if not the most important) of the values. Totally ignoring charisma when determining personality (and success with social skills) is wrong.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Yungar the Mighty (INT 20, CHA 5) is a half-orc with a lot on his mind. He's big, strong, and knows what he wants to say. When he steps up to the barkeeper, he exclaims, "a glass of wine would go over quite well, my good sir. And perhaps a small modicum of information as well." It's a good line, and would have gone over well, if only he'd remembered to bathe that week...

How can an Ork with Int 20 (which has either magical assistance or long-time mental training, since half-orcs can have no more than 16 Int at first) just forget to bathe? A whole week?

And not having had a bath in a given week is a normal condition for your average adventurer....


And for your core statement: If the player comes up with something to explain his low charisma (he has a monotone voice that puts people to sleep better than spells, he stinks worse than a thing possessed by all the demons of the abyss, he's horribly ugly.......) he can play a polite character, for all I care. The problem is just that many won't mention anything that would result in a bad Charisma, so we go for default: impolite, nondescript, bad talker.

 

[Stalker0]

How can an Ork with Int 20 (which has either magical assistance or long-time mental training, since half-orcs can have no more than 16 Int at first) just forget to bathe? A whole week?

And not having had a bath in a given week is a normal condition for your average adventurer....


And for your core statement: If the player comes up with something to explain his low charisma (he has a monotone voice that puts people to sleep better than spells, he stinks worse than a thing possessed by all the demons of the abyss, he's horribly ugly.......) he can play a polite character, for all I care. The problem is just that many won't mention anything that would result in a bad Charisma, so we go for default: impolite, nondescript, bad talker.

If the player isn't willing to work witht he DM on roleplaying his stats, then that means the player isn't roleplaying up to his fullest. Playing your stats is part of the game, and you simply say I don't care that I have a dirt charimsa I 'm not going to roleplay penalties, well then that person's not roleplaying very well.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

How can an Ork with Int 20 (which has either magical assistance or long-time mental training, since half-orcs can have no more than 16 Int at first) just forget to bathe? A whole week?

Take a look at Albert Einstein's hair. Intelligence and good hygiene are not interdependent.

And not having had a bath in a given week is a normal condition for your average adventurer....

You're nit-picking the example instead of addressing the point. My point being, if an adventurer smelled worse than usual, that's a perfectly valid explanation for a low charisma score.

And for your core statement: If the player comes up with something to explain his low charisma (he has a monotone voice that puts people to sleep better than spells, he stinks worse than a thing possessed by all the demons of the abyss, he's horribly ugly.......) he can play a polite character, for all I care. The problem is just that many won't mention anything that would result in a bad Charisma, so we go for default: impolite, nondescript, bad talker.

I guess that's the crux of our difference, then. The first time it came up in game (a player being very suave without the charisma score to back it,) I'd ask the player about it. "Hey, Bob. You sure sound slick there. Are you certain that's what Gorthag says? You'll need to square this low charisma score with me then. If he's such a smooth-talker, what makes Gorthag so un-charismatic?"

Rather than assuming something about the PC, I'd prefer to simply ask the player. Sometimes, a player will say something totally out of character and, when reminded, switch into gear. And sometimes it brings up aspects of the PC that the player simply hadn't thought about previously...