Kae'Yoss
First Post
Tsyr said:
You might give that a try.
http://kender.brisbanecbd.com/dnd3/vr_subability.htm
Haven't tested it (6 ability scores are enough IMO), though it looks OK.
Something I'm not quite understanding about the will save...
- Thread starter Tsyr
- Start date
You might give that a try.
http://kender.brisbanecbd.com/dnd3/vr_subability.htm
Haven't tested it (6 ability scores are enough IMO), though it looks OK.
Kae'Yoss
First Post
Spatzimaus said:
I can't stand it, too. But it depends on the DM. If he's one of the jerks that insists that Cha-checks must be roleplayed (although in fact it's bad roleplaying if the Half-Orc Barbarian with Cha 6 is talking the red dragon out of slaughtering People), it can't be helped (If I end up with a character unplayable because Cha's only on my sheet because it would look empty otherwise, and so a high stat of mine's wasted, I quit playing that charakter and make a really min-maxed powergamer character...).
If you're the DM, you can of course change that! I'll be starting soon, and I'll make sure that everyone who puts his lowest stat in CHA and still tries to be the diplomat will regret it. I won't care (much) what the players say, I'll look up their diplomacy (or bluff, or whatever) value (and probably make a roll) and basing on THAT, I'll interpret their words. So if the player says "Greetings, good sir, my name's Krusk, at your service. I would humbly ask you whether you know the way, since it seems we're lost. I appreciate your answer" or something and he has CHA 8 and not a single rank in any CHA-based skill, Krusk will, in the game, say something like. "Me Krusk! You say where we are, foppy human, or me will punch you in der face!". The other will ract accordingly. And anyone who's persistant, insisting that he was polite and all will get XP penalty for bad roleplaying (not playing the character properly).
Hm... Ninjas do that.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Thanee said:
This is basically what I did from day 1 for my 3e campaign. Cha modifies Will ST. and also represents elements of bravery and willpower.
(IMC Dwarves take a Dex penalty rather than a Cha penalty, and half-orcs tend to be cowardly and insecure).
The one area where this is problematical is Paladins, who end up with a Will ST out the wazoo, but even when there were two paladins in the party it wasn't a game breaker by any means.
Wisdom never becomes a dump stat since it is so vital for spot and listen checks, not to mention all the divine caster classes.
Cheers
KaeYoss said:
Really? No offense, but I'd hate to play under a DM that did that...
If Krusk's player wants to give a speech, but rolls badly on his untrained check, I can see a number of things that'd happen - he mangles some of the "big words", making himself sound like an idiot, he tries to be polite but his words come out as "GREETINGSGOODSIRMYNAME'SKRUSK!" in a savage barbaric accent that ends up frightening everyone, or he just can't make himself well understood and confuses everyone...
But simply deciding that someone with 8 CHA can't have a normal, polite conversation if he wants to, and even going so far as putting words in his mouth that have directly the opposite meaning to what the player is going for is just silly...
Someone with 8 CHA is no more a hideous freak of nature with no people skills whatsoever than someone with 12 CHA is a brilliant orator or someone with 12 STR a champion weightlifter.
Too many people have the tendency to, when it comes to Charisma, exaggerate the effects of a negative modifier beyond all reason.
Victim
First Post
Actually, I think people tend to overplay the effects of a low INT even more than low CHA.
Saying that Wis won't be a dump stat if you change the Will save to CHA because of divine casters and Spot + Listen is like saying that CHA isn't a dump stat because it modifies bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate and powers Paladin abilities, Sorcerer and Bard casting, and turning undead.
The main reason I buy a high Wisdom for non divine casting characters is to boost Will saves. If a character doesn't have spot or listen as class skills, then by mid levels, sneaky guys will almost always get past them anyway since the rolls are opposed. On the other hand, most interaction rolls are going to be against relatively low fixed DCs, so a decent CHA with no ranks still produces a good chance of success.
Saying that Wis won't be a dump stat if you change the Will save to CHA because of divine casters and Spot + Listen is like saying that CHA isn't a dump stat because it modifies bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate and powers Paladin abilities, Sorcerer and Bard casting, and turning undead.
The main reason I buy a high Wisdom for non divine casting characters is to boost Will saves. If a character doesn't have spot or listen as class skills, then by mid levels, sneaky guys will almost always get past them anyway since the rolls are opposed. On the other hand, most interaction rolls are going to be against relatively low fixed DCs, so a decent CHA with no ranks still produces a good chance of success.
Shard O'Glase
First Post
mmu1 said:
What I do is 1. have the palyer roll their reslut. and then 2. roleplay the result. Rolepalying a poor result like you did well might hurt you when I hand out bonus XP for good roleplaying at the end of the game.
I look at CHR skills like any other skills. I'll make a climb analagy. Lets say bob has a 8str and no ranks in climb he wants to climb a wall with a knotted rope. (DC 0) he rolls a one, and abrely suceeds. It aint pretty but he gets uo the wall. Now Krusk has a 8chr and no CHR skills he wants to find out where the enarest bathromm is. (DC0) He rolls a one and barely suceeds, it aint pretty but he gets directions to the abthroom just in time. Two days later Bob emboldened by his ability to climb a knotted rope decides to scale the cliffs of insanity with no climbing tools DC20+, he rolls a one climbsa decent height and falls to his death. Krusk impressed with his own skill at getting directions decides to negotiate a peace settlement with the Red Dragon in the near by mountain DC20+ he rolls a one and promtly gets eaten.
Basicaly some things anyone can succeed at because they are so simple, from ordering ale to climbing a tree with lots of low branches, they basically don't even need a check unless you are at some penalties, you have a broken jaw or are carrying way too much gear. Other checks are more difficult, but the price of failure isn't that great. Negotiating a better deal on that battle axe or sneaking up on a friend to pull off a prank. It may cost yuo a few GPs or to be amde to look the fool but nothing big. Other skill checks falure by 5 or more can be disasterous. Climbing the cliffs of insanity or neogitiating with a dragon.
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Kae'Yoss
First Post
mmu1 said:
As I hate to play under a DM that totally ignores Charisma (except for Paladins's saves, Turning Checks, Bards' and Sorcerers' Spellcasting, and the Performing Checks for bardic music). So people with high charisma, maxed out diplomacy (plus synergy and family bonuses, probably bonuses from skill focus and other feats) who should by the rule be able to talk even an unfriendly NPC into helping them, maybe without even rolling (because of the insane bonuses) doesn't get ANYTHING for all this. The Dwarven player with Cha 11 and no ranks whatsoever in diplomacy will be much better talking to other dwarves, "because he's a dwarf, too".
I can understand if you give circumstance penalties to diplomacy checks for certain situations (the others are wary of you, or you ain't no dwarf and ain't got a beard), but completely disregarding all charisma-based skill checks because "they have to be roleplayed" is a slap in the face for players who have invested precious skill points into that (they could have gone for spot and listen instead, for example)
Let's say he's got Cha 7 (Half-Orc, put a bad roll on cha) without ranks in any cha-based skill.
Now, he's meeting someone on the road (it's dark, stormy, and everyone's road-wary and there are reports of highwayman, so the DM rules that the others are "unfriendly" toward the party, especially since they have a half-orc in the party!).
The Half-Orc rattles down his speach (which doesn't interest the DM much since those words would not come out of a Cha 7 Half-Orcs mouth. Maybe we give him a +2 bonus because the player has made such a fine speach, despite it's completely out of character! But that's a really a courtesy and encourages bad roleplaying!).
So his modifier to the roll will be 0 (+2 circumstance, -2 Cha).
If he rolls 1-4, the character will have been so rude that the others will grab their weapons.
If he rolls 5-14 (the most likely), the others will tell them to bugger off.
If he rolls 15 or more, the others might tell them a little about the way, but won't stop very long and give only vague answers. After all, they want to be within the secure walls of a city as soon as possible!
So, now tell me again: why would you hate to play under such a DM? Maybe because you always put your lowest stat into Cha (unless you get some class benefit out of it, like with a sorcerer or a paladin) and disregard every skill with "cha" as key ability score, since you like to min-max out the charakter and "role-play these rolls?"
I could even rule that the strangers they met were from a caravan - who expect nothing but highwaymen in these parts. That would make them hostile. I could also give them no damn circumstance bonus, because they play crap! so they needed to roll a natural 22 to succeed at the diplomacy check to make them even unfriendly. An impossible task, as it should be in that case!
You forget that meaning != meaning.
Let's take our Cha 7 Half-Orc Barbarian again. Without any ranks in diplimacy. Probably of the sort with the leitmotif "Let your weapons speak". He would not want to have a normal, polite conversation anyway. And even if he would, his version of "polite" might very well differ from everyone else's. We have that even in our world: I know people who answer every stupid joke with "f*cking idiot". I know that he doesn't really think I'm a f*cking idiot". But if he made that comment when his professor pulled a bad joke, it could earn him a special place in that professor's heart (and special attention at every test he writes).
So maybe the player said "Dear Sir, could you be so nice to tell us the way to sundabar, since we seem to be lost in this godless wilderness", the character would never say such a thing. He might say "Hey, weakling, you tell me now where sundabar is, and quick, or I get real angry" Because everyone in his tribe calls humans weaklings (since they tend to be weaker than half-orcs) and he sees nothing special about it, "you tell me now where sundabar is" may be polite enouth in his eyes, and the "and quick" just serves to indicate that he likes the answer soon (another thing often heard by his chieftain). He doesn't even interpret the "or I get real angry" as a threat: he will be angry when he can't find sundabar, that doesn't mean he wants to attack the stranger. But the stranger might very well misinterpret it as a threat.
Face it: A Half-Orc with Cha 7 without any ranks of diplomacy is no good diplomat. If you make long-winded speaches as if he were, you're playing the wrong character.
Cha 8 might not neccesarily mean the ugliest thing on earth, without any people skills whatsoever. But he's neither very strikingly beautiful, nor is he the born speaker. And his diplomatic skills are very surely inadequate to shift the attitude of other people in any grand scale.
A character with Cha 12 with maxed-out Diplomacy skill, on the other hand, has contributed much of his time into conversation and the like, and is rather better than the other guy. A high-level character with even higher character and maxed out Diplomacy, and several other bonuses to Diplomacy, IS a brilliat orator!
I don't expect anyone with a Cha penalty and no Ranks in diplomacy to actually speak like "hey,
, give me that or suffer". But I don't expect them to start using words he hasn't even heard before. If you want to be OK in diplomatic skills, have no Cha penalty, and maybe a couple of token ranks in diplomacy. If you want to be a brilliant diploment, put one of your better rolls into charisma, max diplomacy out, and probably get additional bonuses to Diplomacy as well.And going only by the things the player says is discriminating, too. Maybe the player has not that good social skills, but wants to play a character who has. He'll do as I said above. If you now disregard the values on his sheet and only count what he says, you're discriminating him. Rather, listen to what he says, and determine whether he makes an effort, and let the dice speak. After all, every weakling can play a Barbarian who can lift several times his own wight. Noone's going to let them lift up the fridge to determine whether his character can lift that stone block. So treat the ablitity scores and skills equal, and don't take some out of equation only because you're good in them yourself and min-max your character in other things. Could be the strong, dumb guy who wanted to play a bard tells you that your character does what his character says or he will beat you up. It's practically the same: use player skills instead of character skills. to make a bad PC better.
I have finish
KaeYoss:
Oh, brilliant. It's message board psychoanalysis time. I don't like the clumsy way in which you admitted to handling Charisma, so it has to mean it's the lowest stat for every character I play...
Based on your post, you clearly a)Expect your players to play cartoon stereotypes of D&D characters, and b)You seem to view Charisma as some incredible amalgam of Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, alignment and personality.
How a character is going to approach a given conversation - polite, surly, confrontational - has nothing to do with with his Charisma (unless, for example, he knows how charismatic he is and it makes him self assured, or he knows he's not too slick, making him self-conscious). It's a function of his personality, experience in similar situations, and intelligence. Low charisma alone isn't going to start making someone talk like an idiot with a psychotic streak (or like a barbarian in your campaign, apparently - I suppose having 7 CHA means you just can't help acting and talking like the Incredible Hulk...).
Like I said, just one more example of how much people tend to exaggerate CHA effects...
Oh, brilliant. It's message board psychoanalysis time. I don't like the clumsy way in which you admitted to handling Charisma, so it has to mean it's the lowest stat for every character I play...
Based on your post, you clearly a)Expect your players to play cartoon stereotypes of D&D characters, and b)You seem to view Charisma as some incredible amalgam of Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, alignment and personality.
How a character is going to approach a given conversation - polite, surly, confrontational - has nothing to do with with his Charisma (unless, for example, he knows how charismatic he is and it makes him self assured, or he knows he's not too slick, making him self-conscious). It's a function of his personality, experience in similar situations, and intelligence. Low charisma alone isn't going to start making someone talk like an idiot with a psychotic streak (or like a barbarian in your campaign, apparently - I suppose having 7 CHA means you just can't help acting and talking like the Incredible Hulk...).
Like I said, just one more example of how much people tend to exaggerate CHA effects...
Re
Charisma = Force of Personality and Force of Will (how much will you can exert over other forces and persons)
Wisdom = Strength and depth of Spirit (how much spiritual strength and insight you have personally)
Think of how powerful some leaders are at swaying others to do what they want them to do. There have been leaders with the strength of personality to make others do unwise or unjust acts simply because they encourage them to do so.
On the other hand, there have been individuals who lack the ability to influence others, but they themselves are strong in spirit. They have great control over their own bodies and minds, and great insight into their own being. A good example might be a Hindu priest who is able to perform amazing acts of concentration such as burying their head in the Earth with no air for 2 or more hours or laying on a bed of sharp spikes. They may not be able to sway others, but they are still spiritually strong.
At least, that is how I see it.
P.S.:
Another perfect example of Charisma (Force of Will) versus Wisdom (Strength of Will and Insight) as illustrated by opposed skill checks.
Bluff Skill is Charisma based and is opposed by Sense Motive and Spot, both Wisdom based skills. Thus, the player using their Charisma is using their force of will on another who is resisting using their strength of will and insight.
Charisma = Force of Personality and Force of Will (how much will you can exert over other forces and persons)
Wisdom = Strength and depth of Spirit (how much spiritual strength and insight you have personally)
Think of how powerful some leaders are at swaying others to do what they want them to do. There have been leaders with the strength of personality to make others do unwise or unjust acts simply because they encourage them to do so.
On the other hand, there have been individuals who lack the ability to influence others, but they themselves are strong in spirit. They have great control over their own bodies and minds, and great insight into their own being. A good example might be a Hindu priest who is able to perform amazing acts of concentration such as burying their head in the Earth with no air for 2 or more hours or laying on a bed of sharp spikes. They may not be able to sway others, but they are still spiritually strong.
At least, that is how I see it.
P.S.:
Another perfect example of Charisma (Force of Will) versus Wisdom (Strength of Will and Insight) as illustrated by opposed skill checks.
Bluff Skill is Charisma based and is opposed by Sense Motive and Spot, both Wisdom based skills. Thus, the player using their Charisma is using their force of will on another who is resisting using their strength of will and insight.
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