D&D 4E Something in the "MoonStalker" Paragon Path that doesn't quite make sense?

sabrinathecat

Explorer
So, one of my players was looking at MoonStalker for her shifter.
The level 12 utility is a daily "You assume the form of a gray wolf or a tiger of your size until the end of the encounter, until you fall unconscious, or until you drop to 0hp or fewer. In this form, you add your Wisdom modifier to your speed. In addition, whenever you walk as a move action, you can shift 1 square as a free action before doing so."
So, I guess this would be handy for running away, but...
So, given that a Gray Wolf is a lvl2 monster, and you have to be lvl12 to use this power, what does this form do you attack and damage rolls? Would the character be stuck just doing 1d6 bite attacks?

Seems like either something important is missing, or this is a really crappy power.
???
 

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dave2008

Legend
So, one of my players was looking at MoonStalker for her shifter.
The level 12 utility is a daily "You assume the form of a gray wolf or a tiger of your size until the end of the encounter, until you fall unconscious, or until you drop to 0hp or fewer. In this form, you add your Wisdom modifier to your speed. In addition, whenever you walk as a move action, you can shift 1 square as a free action before doing so."
So, I guess this would be handy for running away, but...
So, given that a Gray Wolf is a lvl2 monster, and you have to be lvl12 to use this power, what does this form do you attack and damage rolls? Would the character be stuck just doing 1d6 bite attacks?

Seems like either something important is missing, or this is a really crappy power.
???
Ugh. 4e was to long ago and I don't remember. If @Garthanos is still around maybe he can answer?
 

dave2008

Legend
So, one of my players was looking at MoonStalker for her shifter.
The level 12 utility is a daily "You assume the form of a gray wolf or a tiger of your size until the end of the encounter, until you fall unconscious, or until you drop to 0hp or fewer. In this form, you add your Wisdom modifier to your speed. In addition, whenever you walk as a move action, you can shift 1 square as a free action before doing so."
So, I guess this would be handy for running away, but...
So, given that a Gray Wolf is a lvl2 monster, and you have to be lvl12 to use this power, what does this form do you attack and damage rolls? Would the character be stuck just doing 1d6 bite attacks?

Seems like either something important is missing, or this is a really crappy power.
???
or maybe @AbdulAlhazred or @beast013 or @EzekielRaiden can help
 

fba827

Adventurer
In 4e when you shape change it is effectively just a cosmetic change and the only stats that change are those specifically called out, in this case speed and shifting 1 for free.
So you might look like a wolf or tiger but you’re using your regular stats otherwise
 


Thing is, the Gray Wolf is a lvl2 creature. It has one attack that does 1d6.
You don't use the Gray Wolf's statblock at all. Your body takes on the physical appearance of a Gray Wolf (or Tiger) of your size, but other than that change and the other listed changes, you have all your other normal stats. So if a Ranger Shifter took this PP, they could still use Twin Strike or whatever other powers. A DM might reasonably say that ranged powers don't work when transformed this way, but that would be a DM ruling, not something technically required by the power itself.

It doesn't work like 3rd edition shapeshifting, where you completely take on all statistics of the monster you transform into. For 4e shape-changing powers, in every sense except those explicitly called out by the power, "you are still yourself," more or less. This is why most offensive uses of polymorph effects explicitly say that they prevent the target from making attacks, for example.

So, in wolf/tiger form, your friend's character has (up to what you and she think is reasonable) all the same attacks, movement modes, items, etc. Her shape is like a normal animal of whichever kind (though a little on the small side, if choosing tiger--normal 4e tigers are large). She can move extra fast (+Wis mod to Speed) and can shift 1 square before moving as long as she's only walking, not running. In all other respects, her character remains functionally equivalent to her normal, non-transformed self, unless you think a change is necessary to ensure things make sense.
 


dave2008

Legend
Wow, it's pretty powerful to be able to shift before moving. I like how OA are more tactical in 4e with shifts and what not.
I find in 5e my players seldom want to take the disengage action.
It is easy to add shifts back to 5e. I find people tend to more scared of moving than there being any real consequence for doing it. Adding shifts back changes almost nothing.
 

Teemu

Adventurer
The power is worded poorly, that's all. Instead of saying that you turn into the form of a wolf or a tiger, it should simply emphasize and empower the lupine or feline aspects of a shifter's bestial form (since in 4e shifters by default are either wolf or cat-like). So I'd re-word the effect as the moonstalker assuming a lycanthrope's hybrid state (a heavily animalistic humanoid).

Alternatively, you could keep the power's effects as is, but restrict attack powers to melee basic only and turn it into an encounter power.
 

As others have said, the mechanical effects are exactly as stated, and nothing else should be assumed. In fact it doesn't even say you cannot access equipment or powers (which things like Wild Shape do restrict). So it is mechanically a very strong shape shift. Obviously there is a fictional effect as well, you look like an animal, which could definitely have story implications!
 

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