Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules"

[Shades of Eternity]

not too shabby, but I do have a question.

Is it ultimately balenced against the other classes?

 

[Khaalis]

not too shabby, but I do have a question.

Is it ultimately balenced against the other classes?

Well to answer that question you should really go back and read earlier Posts in this thread. However to summarize and recap the balance arguments…

PURE CASTER COMPARISON

HD
d8 = Cleric, Druid
d4 = Core Sorcerer, Wizard
Alt.Sorcerer = d6

Only fair to bring them to a median between Wizard and Cleric/Druid since the sorcerer has “more time to learn to fighting skills”.


BAB
Cleric = Average
Druid = Average
Core Sorcerer = Poor
Wizard = Poor
Alt.Sorcerer = Poor

The only classes to gain poor BAB’s are the Wizard and Sorcerer, not even ALL arcane casters, as Bards gain an Average BAB. However, the argument is made that the “Reason” that the Wizard has a Poor BAB is that they spend so much time studying that they have no time to learn melee skills.

The Sorcerer on the other hand specifically stated otherwise:

“Since Sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of rigorous study that Wizards go through, they don’t have the background of arcane knowledge that most Wizard’s have. However they have more time to learn to fighting skills.”

Also, why are clerics, men of faith and piety better trained in Warcraft when their magic leans more away from warcraft, when arcane magic is lent More toward warcraft?

However for balance’s sake, since they are a Pure Arcane caster, and arcane spells are more powerful than Divine and because we feel the sorcerer relies on their magic more than might, we have retained the Poor BAB.


SAVES:
1 Good = Core Sorcerer, Wizard
2 Good = Cleric, Druid
Alt.Sorcerer = 1 Good

Even though Clerics and Druids BOTH gain better saves, we retain the Will Good saves for the sorcerer since there really is no argument that they should have a better Reflex or Fortitude.


CLASS SKILLS
Cleric = 10 skills (plus any domain skills acquired from domain choice)
Druid = 12 skills
Core Sorcerer = 6 skills
Wizard = 15 skills
Alt.Sorcerer = 8 skills (9 or 10 with choice of heredity)

Better than the Core Sorcerer but still at the bottom rung of class skills – along with the Cleric.


SKILL POINTS
2+INT = Cleric, Wizard
4+INT = Druid
Alt.Sorcerer = 4+INT

Brings the Sorcerer to the same skill points per level as the Druid due to the fact they are supposed to be a self taught class strong in the use of their skills to augment their limited spell selection.


WEAPON & ARMOR PROFICIENCY
Cleric = All Simple Weapons; All (Light, Medium, Heavy) Armor and Shields
Druid = 8 Simple Weapons, 1 Martial Weapon and all Natural Attacks; Light and Medium Armor and Shields (non-Metal)
Wizard: 5 Simple Weapons; No Armor or Shields
Alt.Sorcerer = Simple Weapons; Light Armor

Since sorcerers “have more time to learn to fighting skills” they should reflect it. They don’t get a better BAB, they get an increased from d4 to d6 HD but are trained in combat skills. The core sorcerer grants Simple Weapons which is a pretty broad group of fighting styles, which means the sorcerer has spent at least minimal time studying melee craft. Anyone who has ever had any combat training knows that the first thing you ever learn is the defensive abilities. In martial arts, its how to take a hit and a fall. In the military or law enforcement the first thing you learn is how to properly wear a flak jacket. In fencing or kendo the first thing you ever learn is how to properly wear the body armor. If you do something enough, you become proficient. Thus if the sorcerer has had even the most basic of melee training, they know the basics of defense. However, technically as a loop-hole in the rules a Sorcerer (or Wizard) may wear Padded or Leather Armor already with very little penalty as it has no armor check penalty and only 5% or 10% arcane failure. However since the Alt.Sorcerer uses Spell-Like abilities – there is no Arcane Failure applied.

Also… With that said, to be purely realistic about it, Leather Armor is defined as a form of leather platemail (hard leather plates over a softer underarmor). In the real world this is most closely similar to fencing armor or flack jackets.
”The breastplate and shoulder protectors of this armor are made of leather that has been stiffened by boiling in oil. The rest of the armor is made of softer and more flexible leather.”

A chain shirt is defined as a shirt that “protects your torso while leaving your limbs free and mobile. It includes a layer of quilted fabric worn underneath to prevent chafing and to cushion the impact of blows.”

Now in comparison, as someone who has personally worn armor of various types: platemail, chain, fencing armor, kendo armor, leather jerkins, and flack jackets (and I even own a chain shirt), the chain shirt is actually much easier to wear than any form of plate including fencing armor. Leather armor as it is described would require more proficiency in its use than a chain shirt. With the leather armor you have to learn to properly place the plates, strap them down and buckle them in place in just such a way as to provide the flexibility they are supposed to provide – do it wrong and the armor becomes less effective. A chain shirt on the other hand is like putting on 2 pullovers. Put on a t-shirt and then a sweater. Chain shirt is the same thing. Pull on the quilted vest, then the chain shirt. Bounce your shoulders once or twice to make sure its settled in place … and you’re done.

In game terms, if you can wear padded armor you can wear a chain shirt.


CLASS ABILITIES
(Class Abilities {Special column} but counts Spells as a single Class Ability. Counts iterations of an ability as separate abilities where Iterations are such things as stacking Sneak Attacks. Does not count weapon and armor proficiency feats.)
Cleric = 5 abilities (including spontaneous swapping)
Druid = 25 abilities (including spontaneous swapping; 17 without iterations)
Core Sorcerer = 2 abilities
Wizard = 7 abilities
Alt.Sorcerer = 10 abilites

The average number of class abilities (not counting the core Sorcerer which is the weakest in class abilities of ALL classes):
Pure Casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) = 12 abilities (10 w/o iterations). The Alt.Sorcerer brings this UP to the average w/o iterations, below average with iterations.


SPELLS
Class………Ave. Maximum Spells Per Day…|…Ave Spells Known…|…Preparation
Cleric………………….5.6/SL…………………….22 / SL……………….Prepared / No Fail
Druid………………….4.7/SL……………………..17 / SL……………….Prepared / No Fail
Core Sorcerer…………6/SL……………………….4 / SL…………………Unprepared / Fail
Wizard………………...4/SL……………………….37 / SL……………….Prepared / Fail
Specialist Wizard……..5/SL………………………..***………………….. Prepared / Fail
*** As Wizard minus restricted School(s) otherwise still unlimited arcana.
Alt.Sorcerer…………6/SL……………………4.6 / SL…………Unprepared / No Fail

Overall, I think the Sorcerer still remains fairly balanced. There is little change in its magic and the few changes could be the reason the class still remains on the low end of the food chain of all of the other class mechanic structures such as skills, skill points, HD, combat, etc.



NON PURE CASTER COMPARISON

HD
d12 = Barbarian
d10 = Fighter, Paladin
d8 = Monk, Ranger
d6 = Bard, Rogue
Alt.Sorcerer = d6

Still at the bottom tier of HD of those that “have more time to learn to fighting skills”.

BAB
Good= Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger
Average = Bard, Monk, Rogue
Alt.Sorcerer = Poor

Worse than any Non-Pure Caster especially for those that “have more time to learn to fighting skills”.

SAVES
1 Good = Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Rogue
2 Good = Bard, Ranger
3 Good = Monk
Alt.Sorcerer = 1 Good

Bottom rung of saves.

CLASS SKILLS
Barbarian = 9 skills
Bard = 35 skills
Fighter = 7 skills
Monk = 18 skills
Paladin = 10 skills
Ranger = 19 skills
Rogue = 29 skills
Alt.Sorcerer = 8 skills (9 or 10 with choice of heredity)

The sorcerer gains the worst skill selection of any class except the fighter and possibly a tie with the Barbarian and Paladin.

SKILL POINTS
2+INT = Fighter, Paladin
4+INT = Barbarian, Monk
6+INT = Bard, Ranger
8+INT = Rogue
Alt.Sorcerer = 4+INT

The average skill points are 4.6+INT so it is only fair to bring the Sorcerer to the average skill points per level due to the fact they are supposed to be a self taught class strong in the use of their skills to augment their limited spell selection.


WEAPON & ARMOR PROFICIENCY
Barbarian = All Simple & Martial Weapons; Light and Medium Armor and Shields
Bard = All Simple Weapons & 6 Martial Weapons; Light Armor and Shields
Fighter = All Simple & Martial Weapons; All (Light, Medium, Heavy) Armor and Shields (inc. Tower)
Monk = 6 Simple Weapons, 1 Martial Weapon, 5 Exotic Weapons; No Armor or Shields
Paladin = All Simple & Martial Weapons; All (Light, Medium, Heavy) Armor and Shields
Ranger = All Simple & Martial Weapons; Light Armor and Shields
Rogue = All Simple Weapons, 3 Martial Weapons, 1 Exotic Weapon; Light Armor
Alt.Sorcerer = Simple Weapons; Light Armor

Still easily at the low end of the food chain on weapons and armor. See the above argument on Armor.


CLASS ABILITIES
(Class Abilities {Special column} but counts Spells as a single Class Ability. Counts iterations of an ability as separate abilities where Iterations are such things as stacking Sneak Attacks. Does not count weapon and armor proficiencies.)
Barbarian = 24 abilities (9 without iterations)
Bard = 15 abilities (12 without iterations)
Fighter = 11 abilities
Monk = 33 abilities (includes AC increase and speed; 25 without iterations)
Paladin = 19 abilities (11 without iterations)
Ranger = 18 abilities
Rogue = 24 abilities (10 without iterations)
Alt.Sorcerer = 10 abilites

The average number of class abilities for non-pure casters:
Pure Melee (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue) = 23 abilities (13 w/o iterations)
Hybrid-Caster (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) = 17 abilities (13 w/o iterations)

The Alt.Sorcerer falls below both averages.


When taking the overall comparisons, I feel the Sorcerer is actually much more balanced now than the core class which was so overmatched by all of the other classes as to be silly. The new sorcerer has more flavor, flair, flexibility and overall usefulness and becomes much more closely balanced to all of the other classes.

 

[Stormborn]

"When taking the overall comparisons, I feel the Sorcerer is actually much more balanced now than the core class which was so overmatched by all of the other classes as to be silly. The new sorcerer has more flavor, flair, flexibility and overall usefulness and becomes much more closely balanced to all of the other classes."

I agree.

 

[Shades of Eternity]

now comes the big question

how to make it official.

Any suggestions?

 

[Eolin]

It looks like you changed the spell known. But i don't remember that from the origional. Did you indeed change the spell/day, or did i misread? Imho, keeping the current spells/known should be ok -- less work to change, and you don't get much out of changing it.

 

[Tuzenbach]

Does that class need more "Unique" abilities similar to the way a Druid gains powers on top of spellcasting?


Thanks all for the input!

Yes! And I've actually thought of one........

The Sorcerer should have their own sort of *wild shape* abilities, but kind of twisted.


5th Level: Wild shape once a day

7th Level: Wild shape twice a day

9th Level: Wild shape (tiny)

11th Level: Wild shape three times a day

13th Level: Wild shape (large)

15th Level: Wild shape (diminutive)

17th Level: Wild shape (huge)


OK, here's the *twisted* part. You know how most bears are brown and most foxes are reddish and most parakeets are green or whatever? Well, when the Sorcerer assumes his Wild Shape, the animals are kind of, well, different.....

What if you saw a black snake with pink polka-dots, or a huge purple grizzly bear? How about a lime-green falcon (eyes, beak, the works!), or an orange and fuschia-striped dog? Ever bear witness to a bright red (we're talking Ronald McDonald here) horse?!

The above examples would be what results when the Sorcerer uses Wild Shape. Though he's got control over the *type* of animal he's changing into, the appearance is completely contrary to what a regular creature of the sort would look like. It's all randomly determined by the DM using a table that I'm just not ambitious enough to come up with.

Why? Well, the rather poorly written book description of the Sorcerer keeps iterating the fact that Socerers are *different* and a bit chaotic and they always seem to stand out from eveyone else. What better way to stand out than a class power that can alter the Sorcerer into a magenta cat?

It's got pros and cons, to be sure. Obviously, it's handy to change oneself into a winged creature when one needs to fly. On the other hand, everyone who sees the hawk with zebra colors automatically KNOWS it's either a psychedelic illusion or a Sorcerer in disguise. Hence, target practice, baby!




FWIW, I agree with all the intial suggestions in this thread. I'll have to read the subsequent ones more in depth, though. Cool thread, Khaalis!

 

[handforged]

I really like what you are doing here, and will probably adopt some of it when it gets edited and all. Here is another alternate sorceror developed on this board a while back by Seasong and folks. Although it is quite different from your system in some ways(bloodlines vs. schools), it is also very similar in others(skills, armor, flavor).

alt.Sorcerer Seasong
Special thanks to (alphabetical) Capellan, DerianCypher, DreamChaser, Galethorn, handforged, Mike Sullivan, Plane Sailing, Technik4, and willpax for their commentary and critiques.

BAB: As Wizard.
Saves: Good Will.
Spells per Day: As original Sorcerer.
Special: Words of Power (eschew components at 1st level, still spell at 5th level); Powerful Voice (10th, 15th and 20th level).

Alignment: Any.
HD: d6.
Skill Points: 4 + INT bonus, x4 at 1st level.

Class Skills: The sorcerer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Int), Scry (Int, exclusive skill), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields. Sorcerers are not affected by the arcane spell failure rules for armor.

Words of Power: Sorcerers cast spells with words of power and force of will, rather than arcane formulae and arcane gestures. All spells require a verbal component, and sorcerers gain no benefit from silent spell (but see the persistent word feat for casting in silence zones).

Sorcerers can ignore material components that cost less than 1 GP; this is as the eschew components feat, and does not add to the level of the spell. Material components which cost more than 1 GP, and XP costs, must still be paid normally.

At 5th level, sorcerers can ignore somatic components; this is as the still spell feat, and does not add to the level of the spell.

Powerful Voice: At 10th level, once per day, the sorcerer may cast a spell as if it were maximized. This does not increase the casting time or level of the spell. At 15th level, the sorcerer may do this twice per day; and at 20th level, the sorcerer may do this three times per day.

Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells. A sorcerer is limited to casting a certain number of spells of each level per day, but he need not prepare his spells in advance. The number of spells he can cast per day is improved by his bonus spells from CHA, if any. A sorcerer may use a higher-level slot to cast a lower-level spell if he so chooses. The spell is still treated as its actual level, not the level of the slot used to cast it.

A sorcerer knows 6 spells at 1st level. Each level thereafter, he may choose two new spells to learn; these two spells may be of any level he can now cast. The number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma bonus. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell's level.

At 1st level as a sorcerer, the player must choose a school of magic and opposition school(s) as if she were a specialist wizard. The sorcerer may not learn spells from the opposition school(s), and all schools other than the one chosen are learned and cast as if the sorcerer had one less sorcerer level (at 1st level, the sorcerer can only learn cantrips from other schools). There is no specialist benefit for the sorcerer.

Aside from these limitations, a sorcerer may learn spells from the basic cleric list, druid list and sorcerer/wizard list without restriction. This does not include the bard, cleric domain, paladin or ranger spell lists. All spells learned by a sorcerer are treated as arcane, regardless of their source.

The Difficulty Class for saving throws against sorcerer spells is 10 + the spell's level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.

Metamagic and Spells: A sorcerer utilizing metamagic increases the casting time to one full round; if the spell normally takes a full round or more, the sorcerer adds one full round to the normal casting time. There are two exceptions: the word of power class ability does not increase the casting time of spells; and the quicken spell metamagic feat does not increase the casting time (and in fact decreases it).

1-Eschew Materials, Words of Power
5-Still Spell
10-Maximize Spell 1/day
15-Maximize Spell 2/day
20-Maximize Spell 3/day

Persistent Word (Metamagic)
Benefit: A persistent word spell's verbal component works despite magical silence, allowing the caster to cast the spell in a silence area. A persistent word spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
Special: Persistent word is only available to sorcerers (just like spell mastery for wizards).

Another progression suggested by the crowd was this:

1-Eschew Materials, Words of Power
5-Still Spell
10-Sculpt Self
15-Metamagic or PrR Feat
20-Metamagic

I hope this helps in some way. At least it gives someone another option.

~hf

 

[Khaalis]

now comes the big question… how to make it official. Any suggestions?

I don’t think there will ever be an “Official” change to the Sorcerer. The best I could think will be that something like this be offered as a PDF publish similar to Monte’s Alt.Sorcerer. Thanks for the compliment though.

It looks like you changed the spell known. But i don't remember that from the origional. Did you indeed change the spell/day, or did i misread? Imho, keeping the current spells/known should be ok -- less work to change, and you don't get much out of changing it.

Yes I have changed spells known. Depending on how you look at it, I have simplified it. Granted just using the existing table is “simple” because it’s already there. However, what I did, with input and suggestion from the crowd, is gone with:

“A Sorcerer begins play knowing 6 0-Level spell-like abilities (Cantrips), and 2 1st-Level spell-like abilities of their choice plus any bonus known spell-like abilities from their heritage. At each new experience level, the sorcerer gains 2 new spell-like abilities that may be acquired form any spell level that they currently may utilize.”

This in many way simplifies the acquisition of known spells as well as allows more flexibility to the Sorcerer. For example no longer hearing: “I get a new 5th level spell this level but there aren’t any 5th level spells I want, but I would love to pick up this 3rd level spell.”

Yes! And I've actually thought of one........
The Sorcerer should have their own sort of *wild shape* abilities, but kind of twisted.
{snippage}
FWIW, I agree with all the intial suggestions in this thread. I'll have to read the subsequent ones more in depth, though. Cool thread, Khaalis!

I do have Wild Shape in the list of Sorcerer class abilities. It never gets as good or as often as a Druid (don’t want to step too much on the Druid’s class ability toes). If you wanted to place a stipulation like this on the power you could easily do so.

Also and again – thanks for the compliments.

 

[Khaalis]

I really like what you are doing here, and will probably adopt some of it when it gets edited and all.

Once again – thanks for the compliments.

Here is another alternate sorceror developed on this board a while back by Seasong and folks. Although it is quite different from your system in some ways(bloodlines vs. schools), it is also very similar in others(skills, armor, flavor).

Things we have the same:
BAB, Saves, Spells per Day, HD, Skill Points, Weapons & Armor*, Use of “Class Abilities” beyond the gaining of a familiar at 1st level

* Though with my version there is no need to place the Still Spell use for arcane spell failure. Spell-Like abilities are simply not affected by arcane spell failure.


Primary Differences:

Alignment: Any.

In general I stick with this, however some heredities have an influence on alignment that prohibit certain alignments such as a Celestial Sorcerer cannot be evil.

Words of Power: Sorcerers cast spells with words of power and force of will, rather than arcane formulae and arcane gestures. All spells require a verbal component, and sorcerers gain no benefit from silent spell (but see the persistent word feat for casting in silence zones).

Sorcerers can ignore material components that cost less than 1 GP; this is as the eschew components feat, and does not add to the level of the spell. Material components which cost more than 1 GP, and XP costs, must still be paid normally.

At 5th level, sorcerers can ignore somatic components; this is as the still spell feat, and does not add to the level of the spell.

Powerful Voice: At 10th level, once per day, the sorcerer may cast a spell as if it were maximized. This does not increase the casting time or level of the spell. At 15th level, the sorcerer may do this twice per day; and at 20th level, the sorcerer may do this three times per day.

This is something I was trying to get away from. Though it technically works, I feel it is a bit “cumbersome”. I just do not like the idea of a class having to acquire “abilities” over their level path to do something that is supposed to be the core function of the class. When a class gains its spell abilities, it gains them pure and simple. The Sorcerer should be no exception. If they use innate magic, then they should use innate magic from the start. Not begin as nothing more than wizard with no spellbook and slowly become an innate spell user. I also wanted to stay away from “exception” statements such as: “All spells require a verbal component, and sorcerers gain no benefit from silent spell (but see the persistent word feat for casting in silence zones).”

Thus, I really feel that the best way to represent Sorcerous magic, as it is described in the Sorcerer Description as well as how it used by all the creatures that use magic “As a Sorcerer” is that it should be Spell-Like Abilities. The above “system” basically creates the same effect except for Verbal components – making it more of a “Will and the Word” (Eddings) style magic which is more akin to Psionics.

Spells Known: A sorcerer knows 6 spells at 1st level. Each level thereafter, he may choose two new spells to learn; these two spells may be of any level he can now cast.”

Only issue I have with this is that it does not force a Sorcerer to take any Cantrips. They could begin with 6 1st level spells. Other than mine granting 6 Cantrips and 2 1st level spells – Spells Known is the same.

Specialization: At 1st level as a sorcerer, the player must choose a school of magic and opposition school(s) as if she were a specialist wizard. The sorcerer may not learn spells from the opposition school(s), and all schools other than the one chosen are learned and cast as if the sorcerer had one less sorcerer level (at 1st level, the sorcerer can only learn cantrips from other schools). There is no specialist benefit for the sorcerer.

I have used something similar but much more custom tailored to the Heredity. One heredity gains a form of specialization similar to a Wizard’s while others gain specific bans on spells they can learn.

Aside from these limitations, a sorcerer may learn spells from the basic cleric list, druid list and sorcerer/wizard list without restriction. This does not include the bard, cleric domain, paladin or ranger spell lists. All spells learned by a sorcerer are treated as arcane, regardless of their source.

I do not allow this much freedom in spell selection. Sorcerers are still arcane casters and I would not want to see Sorcerers running around with Cure or Harm spells. The exception to this would be a Divine Receptacle Sorcerer with a deity that grants the Healing Domain and this is the domain the Sorcerer chooses to focus on. Children of Nature would have access to the Druid list. A Child of the Elements would gain access to all spells with their element descriptor related energy descriptor, regardless of the list it comes from. This ties the sorcerer’s magic more to their heritage.

Persistent Word (Metamagic)
Benefit: A persistent word spell's verbal component works despite magical silence, allowing the caster to cast the spell in a silence area. A persistent word spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
Special: Persistent word is only available to sorcerers (just like spell mastery for wizards).

An interesting feat for the build, but I don’t necessarily like the idea of building new feats to fit a class revision. I was trying to rebuild the Sorcerer to fit within the existing rules structure without a need to invent new rules such as the need for new feats.

Another progression suggested by the crowd was this:
1-Eschew Materials, Words of Power
5-Still Spell
10-Sculpt Self
15-Metamagic or PrR Feat
20-Metamagic

See my above comments on the Words of Power. As for abilities such as Sculpt Self and Metamagic feats, these are covered in the Sorcerer Abilities under the Bonus Feat and the Metamagic Feat options.

I hope this helps in some way. At least it gives someone another option.

Thanks. It gives me a good insight that I am on the right path with this for many of the agreed upon aspects, and it helps me argue and reason out the premises behind the rest of my ideas. The more I can justify my changes and reason out the logic of how and why they work, the more water tight the build becomes.

Keep them coming folks!

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Khaalis.

You asked for constructive feedback earlier, so I will do my best.

First of all, the level of cooperation on this thread is inspiring. The shear volume of writing you have collectively produced is mind-numbing (to say the least). But I think everybody here already knows that, so I won't linger with the compliments too long.



In reading this thread, you have made two statements that are contradictory to each other. The first is that you are trying to make a sorcerer with mass appeal, and the second is that you are deliberately embracing radical ideas.

Well you can't have it both ways. Radical ideas will inherently have limited mass appeal by their very nature (no matter how much you or the people involved in making those ideas like them). I don't know what your definition of mass appeal is, but if you're looking to create even an official-feeling sorcerer, the word count of this one would dwarfs every other core character class in the printed rulebooks. That alone should tell you something. Essentially, this sorcerer is not generic enough to have mass appeal.

Now before you drop a sack of hammers on the word "generic", realize that it's not a dirty word. The ideas contained in this thread are radical, and that's great. It is infinitely better to start with radical ideas (and then pear them down to the most essential radical ideas), than to start with generic ideas in the first place. Now you can create a sorcerer with mass appeal based on strong radical concepts. The creative position is enviable.

By saying paring down, realize as well that I am not suggesting the work submitted here has been is in vain. Far from it. What I see is a wealth of sorcerer prestige class material that should be duly exploited once it can be compartmentalized into levels.

But to present all of this material as a replacement for the core character class sorcerer...? There is simply too much writing. The minute attention paid to the sorcerer would outweigh every other character class.

As for the specifics of these ideas, probably the biggest problem I can see is that you are trying to marry spell-like abilities to sorcerers.

Assuming that you have not modified the rules for spell-like abilities, too many rule abuses present themselves ... not the least of which is material components. I'm sure somebody has brought this up already, but casting even a 1st-level spell with costly material components, like identify, for free, not only saves hundreds of gold pieces per day, it can earn that much in the right marketplace. This is a hugely broken game mechanic in the hands of a 1st-level character.

Now if I have overlooked any contingencies that this thread has created to avoid abuses like this, forgive me. But even so, getting rid of somatic and verbal components means that every sorcerer can take 1 level of fighter, suit up in full-plate, and become a one-man Juggernaught of magic.

Like them or not, spell components are needed to maintain game balance, and that includes the sorcerer. It would be best if you found a way to rationalize spell components for sorcerers in a way that both sets them apart from wizards and still pays tribute to their innate magic.

I have a chosen way of doing this for my own sorcerer (created in large part by a collaborative effort very much like this one), but that quintessential sorcerer thread shares little in common with the radical sorcerer being created here. Moreover, my intention is not submit my own version of the sorcerer, but to offer constructive feedback on the one that is being presented, as per requested.

Do with it as you will. I hope it helped.