Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules"

[Buttercup]

On a side note – I also think I have placed my finger on what is still feeling unfinished… SPELLS

While currently I use the Forgotten Heroes – Sorcerer system to ALLOW for restricted spell lists, this does not sit well with me. I want the Sorcerer spell list more restricted. The question is how to do this? Currently the spell list is limited by removing any spell with a Material Component or Focus of a value higher than 1gp, and by Heredity restrictions such as banning spells of a specific descriptor or domain list. I still do not feel that this limits the spell lists enough.

There should be SOME way of denoting what is and isn’t an appropriate sorcerer spell. This is what I think I need the most help determining. Does anyone have any ideas on how to limit the spell lists? Should I designate specific themes? Or should I modify the FH-S system to FORCE a player into choosing small thematic spell lists?

I don't feel like I'm qualified to judge balance without a playtest, so all my comments here should be taken with a grain of salt. Mostly, what I've been looking for is a way to replicate the kind of sorcerer that I know from the fantasy literature of certain authors.

I agree that sorcerer spell lists should be limited, but I think those limitations should be strictly individual in nearly every case. For example, with the right bloodline, I would allow a sorcerer to take healing spells, but I would balance it by disallowing some other kind (dunno what at the moment). I wouldn't allow the fly and teleportation spells without taking something very powerful away, like maybe evocation spells. I would forbid an elementalist sorcerer from taking spells from the other three elements. Since sorcerers are untrained, I would eliminate many of the spells that are more "bookish" such as secret page. And so on. Maybe there is a way to codify this that we could all agree on, or maybe what is needed is just a list of suggestions for limiting spells to focus a theme.

I haven't read any of the Darkover books by Marion Zimmer Bradley for over a decade, but during this whole discussion what keeps popping into my head is the idea that magic (she called it Laran, and it was really a sort of psionics) manifests differently for everyone.

I think the goal should be to say: ok, a sorcerer gets X number of special abilities, and X number of spells, all of which should relate to the heritage the player chooses at first level.

But as I said, I don't really know what I'm talking about, so pay more attention to the comments you get from experts.

 

[Khaalis]

I don't feel like I'm qualified to judge balance without a playtest, so all my comments here should be taken with a grain of salt. Mostly, what I've been looking for is a way to replicate the kind of sorcerer that I know from the fantasy literature of certain authors.

I agree that sorcerer spell lists should be limited, but I think those limitations should be strictly individual in nearly every case. For example, with the right bloodline, I would allow a sorcerer to take healing spells, but I would balance it by disallowing some other kind (dunno what at the moment). I wouldn't allow the fly and teleportation spells without taking something very powerful away, like maybe evocation spells. I would forbid an elementalist sorcerer from taking spells from the other three elements. Since sorcerers are untrained, I would eliminate many of the spells that are more "bookish" such as secret page. And so on. Maybe there is a way to codify this that we could all agree on, or maybe what is needed is just a list of suggestions for limiting spells to focus a theme.

I haven't read any of the Darkover books by Marion Zimmer Bradley for over a decade, but during this whole discussion what keeps popping into my head is the idea that magic (she called it Laran, and it was really a sort of psionics) manifests differently for everyone.

I think the goal should be to say: ok, a sorcerer gets X number of special abilities, and X number of spells, all of which should relate to the heritage the player chooses at first level.

But as I said, I don't really know what I'm talking about, so pay more attention to the comments you get from experts.

{On Soapbox}
You really shouldnt put yourself down so. You have some good ideas and good comments. If you read fantasy and play D&D you are "qualified" to post your ideas and comments here. Dont sell yourself short.
{Off Soapbox}

As for some of the ideas you listed I do agree. I like the idea of limiting the Elemental sorcerers to their own energy descriptor and only that descriptor. Thats good call. Very limiting.

Now for some of the others is where it gets harder. Maybe the first step is to reproduce the base Wizard/Sorcerer spell list minus the restricted Material Component spells, remove the Wizard specific spells, and removed Wizard Flavor spells such as Secret Page.

How many people have access to Monte's Eldritch Might II sorcerer spell list? Maybe we could begin with this as the base and trim it form there for those who want a large "generic" sorcerer spell list. Then from this list show how to modify the list for specific Themes including access to non-Wizard spells.

One example of a Theme that I love is from Forgotten Heroes - Sorcerer and could work well with a few heredities. I'll list the 1st few levels so you can get the idea.

Gypsy Lore Spell List
0-Level: Arcane Mark, Daze, Detect Magic, Flare, Guidance, Light, Mending, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Read Magic
1st Level: Alarm, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Comprehend Langauges, Create Water, Detect Poison, Detect Secret Doors, Grease, Hold Portal, Hypnotism, Know Direction, Magical Aura, Message, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Purify Food & Drink, Sleep
2nd Level: Bane, Deathwatch, Detect Snares & Pits, Detect Thoughts, Doom, Hideous Laughter, Locate Object, Misdirection, Obscure Object, Sanctuary, Scare, See Invisibility, Whispering Wind
3rd Level: Animal Messenger, Augury, Calm Emotions, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic, Find Traps, Gentle Repose, Hold Person, Illusory Script, Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nondetection, Secret Page, Speak with Animals, Suggestion, Tongues, Zone of Truth
4th Level: Arcane Eye, Bestow Curse, Charm Monster, Confussion, Detect Scrying, Emotion, Fear, Lesser Geas, Remove Curse, Scrying, Snare

Some other sample Thematic lists they present are the Glamour Mage (very Fey based centered on tricks, illusions and enchantment), Warrior-Mage (functional combat list of direct damage and buff spells), Befuddlement (a spell path desigined on illusory trickery and mind-bending), Domination (a spell path dedicated to enchanment domination), and Elementalist (general and single element).

I dont want to define all of the possible thematic lists but we could use these as examples of how to maniuplate the base Sorcerer spell list (once we have one).

Keep the ideas coming.

 

[Buttercup]

I can see that I'll have to get my hands on Forgotten Heroes-Sorcerer. I've never heard of it before, but it clearly has some interesting content.

I love the gypsy sorcerer!

 

[Khaalis]

I can see that I'll have to get my hands on Forgotten Heroes-Sorcerer. I've never heard of it before, but it clearly has some interesting content.

I love the gypsy sorcerer!

The book was originally a PDF publish then went print by Malladin's Gate Press. It is by authors Ben Redmond and Nigel McClelland.

 

[Stormborn]

The second part of the comments on the abilites. As for the Language issue mentioned earlier, I agree that a bonus language is rather a small boon. Give it to all the heritages, where applicable, as part of hereditary memory. As for applying CHA modifiers to other things, like DEX, I agree that it could easilly become too powerful. I like the new version of Clarity. I don't see the Druids elemental form ability as a unique and new ability, but rather an outgrowth of his other shape changing powers. As such I see why the Druid can choose the size he changes into, but still think a sorcerer should have increase by levels. Simply a Level 1 (Small to Medium) and Level 2 (Large.) But, you are right, it is easier jsut to replicate an existant ability from another class.

Metamagic Feats: The sorcerer may choose a bonus feat from the “Suggested Sorcerer Metamagic Feat by Source” table, though any necessary prerequisites must be met. Metamagic feats are handled normally, taking a full round action to augment a spell-like ability with a metamagic effect.
Players Handbook: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Silent Spell, Widen Spell
Examples From other WotC Sources...
Book of Exalted Deeds: Consecrate Spell, Nonlethal Substitution, Purify Spell
Tome & Blood: Chain Spell, Cooperative Spell, Delay Spell, Energy Admixture, Energy Substitution, Eschew Materials, Persistent Spell, Repeat Spell, Sanctum Spell, Sculpt Spell, Split Ray, Subdual Substitution, Twin Spell, Widen Spell

No problems here, but perhaps include them as part of the Bonus Feat list?


Oracle (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Arcane Expert, Arcane Orphan, Child of Nature, or Divine Receptacle heritage they can be blessed (or cursed) with the innate ability in the arts of Divination. Each time the Sorcerer with this ability gains a new spell level, they gain a Divination spell-like ability of that level as a bonus known spell-like ability. In addition, oracles cast all Divination spell-like abilities at a +1 caster level. If the Sorcerer also uses the typical trappings of Fortune Telling as a spell focus (such as Tarot Cards, Crystal Ball, etc.), their Divination spell-like abilities are cast at +2 caster levels.

I am somewhat hesitant to give yet another known spell-like ability per new spell level, since that is a big feature of each heritage this kind of ability is a much bigger boon than some of the others. Perhaps grant the Sorcerer the ability to replicate Divination spells with the use of Knowledge(aracana) and one of the focuses you mention. Let the DC be based on the spell level. That way a sorcerer might try to read the future in the patterns of the clouds, make a check, and then get different levels of info based on the result. This should probablly be limited to once per day. Retain the +1 per caster level to Divination spell-like abilites.

Power Manipulation (Su): If the Sorcerer has 9 or more ranks in Concentration, the Sorcerer has developed their innate control of magic to a degree where they can now manipulate the magical energy that they channel to increase its effectiveness.
Power Manipulation I: The sorcerer may increase the potency of the spell-like abilities shaped, adding up to their Charisma modifier in effective caster levels for determining spell-like ability effects. The drawback to this is that the sorcerer sustains 1d4 points of physical damage and 1d4 points of subdual damage per additional effective level of increased potency.
Power Manipulation II: If the sorcerer has 17 or more ranks in Concentration and has Power Manipulation I, the sorcerer has further developed their innate control of magic to a degree where they can now master channeling harmful pre-channeled magical energy. This allows the sorcerer the ability to attempt to absorb hostile pre-channeled magical energy. When the sorcerer is


Spellshaping (Su): If the sorcerer has any metamagic feats, they may take this ability which allows them to use metamagic in the reverse of what the feat was originally intended to do, thereby lowering the spell slot needed to cast the spell. This ability may be taken multiple times, applying its benefits to a different metamagic feat each time. Example, a sorcerer who uses the Empower metamagic feat can increase all numeric effects of a spell by one-half, and thereby increasing the spell level by two. If the same sorcerer then takes the Spellshaping ability, it would allow them to reverse the effect of the Empower feat, thus lowering all numeric effects to one-half of the original value, and taking up a spell slot two levels lower. In this way a very low powered fireball for example, could be cast using a 1st level spell slot.

OK, I see what you are doing, and I think its a good idea. I feel like there is a better way to say it, but right now I am at a loss. Sorry, I hate to offer a negative comment and not follow it up with some kind of suggestion.

Spirit Guide (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Arcane Expert, Arcane Orphan, or Divine Receptacle heritage, they can be blessed (or cursed) with a supernatural ability to channel necromantic energy and tend to focus on the world of ghosts and spirits. The sorcerer gains the following spells from the necromancer school as bonus known spell-like abilities and uses them at a +1 caster level: Disrupt Undead, Halt Undead, Animate Undead, Control Undead, and Soul Bind. Additionally the sorcerer gains the spell-like ability Speak with Dead as a bonus 3rd level arcane spell-like ability and the Create Greater Undead spell-like ability as a bonus 9th level arcane spell-like ability. These are also cast at a +1 caster level.

As with the Oracle, I'm not sure about granting additional known spell-like abilities. How about keep the +1 caster level for all Necromantic spells, allow Speak with Dead as a supernatural ability usable a number of times per day equal to their CHA modifier (or just 3 times per day)?

Summoner (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Child of Magic (Celestial or Fiendish), Child of the Elements or Divine Receptacle heritage, they can attain a specialized affinity for summoning creatures from other planes. At each spell level they gain Summon Monster of the appropriate level as a bonus known spell-like ability and use all Summon Monster spell-like abilities at a +1 caster level.

You can anticipate my comment here. Instead,how about an expanded summoning list in addition ot the increased caster level?


Towering Stature (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Child of Magic (Storm Giant) heredity, the sorcerer mysteriously gains in size after each night’s sleep over the following month until, at the end of that time they have reached the maximum height for their species – becoming of an imposing and impressive stature. The sorcerer gains a bonus to all Fortitude saves equal to their Charisma modifier, the Toughness feat, and a +1 enlargement bonus to all Intimidate skill checks.

Maybe additional levels to increase by a size catagory, with spell level prereqs?


Hope these help.

 

[Khaalis]

The second part of the comments on the abilites.

Thanks for replying Stormborn! The more comments the better.

As for the Language issue mentioned earlier, I agree that a bonus language is rather a small boon. Give it to all the heritages, where applicable, as part of hereditary memory. As for applying CHA modifiers to other things, like DEX, I agree that it could easilly become too powerful. I like the new version of Clarity.

Agreed. The bonus languages will be added, no stacking CHA and DEX and Clarity goes with the new version.

I don't see the Druids elemental form ability as a unique and new ability, but rather an outgrowth of his other shape changing powers. As such I see why the Druid can choose the size he changes into, but still think a sorcerer should have increase by levels. Simply a Level 1 (Small to Medium) and Level 2 (Large.) But, you are right, it is easier jsut to replicate an existant ability from another class.

It is easier to replicate the existing power. I also have to think about scalability balance. By the time the Sorcerer gains this ability, is a Medium Elemental of much use? Elementals of that size are quite weak compared to most anything else a Sorcerer can do at that level of ability.

Metamagic Feats:
No problems here, but perhaps include them as part of the Bonus Feat list?

I separated these because they are a different type of Feat than those gained in the Bonus Feat section. I have found that most people like seeing Item Creation and Metamagic feats listed separately from General feats, as the Player’s Handbook does on p.91 Its more of a format issue, and makes it easier for the player to pick what category of feat they want to look at. I know that if I want to add a Metamagic feat, I don’t want to dig through a score of feats looking for ones that sound like they might be Metamagic feats.

Oracle (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Arcane Expert, Arcane Orphan, Child of Nature, or Divine Receptacle heritage they can be blessed (or cursed) with the innate ability in the arts of Divination. Each time the Sorcerer with this ability gains a new spell level, they gain a Divination spell-like ability of that level as a bonus known spell-like ability. In addition, oracles cast all Divination spell-like abilities at a +1 caster level. If the Sorcerer also uses the typical trappings of Fortune Telling as a spell focus (such as Tarot Cards, Crystal Ball, etc.), their Divination spell-like abilities are cast at +2 caster levels.

I am somewhat hesitant to give yet another known spell-like ability per new spell level, since that is a big feature of each heritage this kind of ability is a much bigger boon than some of the others. Perhaps grant the Sorcerer the ability to replicate Divination spells with the use of Knowledge(aracana) and one of the focuses you mention. Let the DC be based on the spell level. That way a sorcerer might try to read the future in the patterns of the clouds, make a check, and then get different levels of info based on the result. This should probablly be limited to once per day. Retain the +1 per caster level to Divination spell-like abilites.


Spirit Guide (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Arcane Expert, Arcane Orphan, or Divine Receptacle heritage, they can be blessed (or cursed) with a supernatural ability to channel necromantic energy and tend to focus on the world of ghosts and spirits. The sorcerer gains the following spells from the necromancer school as bonus known spell-like abilities and uses them at a +1 caster level: Disrupt Undead, Halt Undead, Animate Undead, Control Undead, and Soul Bind. Additionally the sorcerer gains the spell-like ability Speak with Dead as a bonus 3rd level arcane spell-like ability and the Create Greater Undead spell-like ability as a bonus 9th level arcane spell-like ability. These are also cast at a +1 caster level.

As with the Oracle, I'm not sure about granting additional known spell-like abilities. How about keep the +1 caster level for all Necromantic spells, allow Speak with Dead as a supernatural ability usable a number of times per day equal to their CHA modifier (or just 3 times per day)?


Summoner (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Child of Magic (Celestial or Fiendish), Child of the Elements or Divine Receptacle heritage, they can attain a specialized affinity for summoning creatures from other planes. At each spell level they gain Summon Monster of the appropriate level as a bonus known spell-like ability and use all Summon Monster spell-like abilities at a +1 caster level.

You can anticipate my comment here. Instead,how about an expanded summoning list in addition ot the increased caster level?

2nd Drafts:
On oracle I don’t want to get into writing a whole new Skill or “New Use for Old Skill”. It tends to bog things down too much. I agree on necromancy and that is easily made to fit Oracle. Summoner on the other hand is much tougher. I do not want to re-write the summoning spell lists. So with that said, how about these?

Oracle (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Arcane Expert, Arcane Orphan, Child of Nature, or Divine Receptacle heritage and has 6 ranks or more in one of the following Knowledge skills (Arcana, Nature or Religion), they are blessed (or cursed) with the innate ability in the arts of Divination. Once per day equal to their Charisma modifier, they may use the typical trappings of Fortune Telling (such as Tarot Cards, Crystal Ball, etc.) as a focus item to use augury. In addition, oracles use all Divination spell-like abilities at a +1 caster level. If the Sorcerer also uses the typical trappings of Fortune Telling (as noted above) as a spell focus, their Divination spell-like abilities are used at +2 caster levels.

Spirit Guide (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Arcane Expert, Arcane Orphan, or Divine Receptacle heritage and has 6 ranks or more in one of the following Knowledge skills (Arcana or Religion), they can be blessed (or cursed) with an ability to channel necromantic energy that tends to focus on the world of ghosts and spirits. The sorcerer gains the ability to [/I]speak with dead[/I] a number of times per day equal to their Charisma score. The sorcerer are also uses all necromantic spells at a +1 caster level.

Summoner (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Child of Magic (Celestial or Fiendish), Child of the Elements or Divine Receptacle heritage, they can attain a specialized affinity for summoning creatures from other planes. All creatures summoned by a summoner gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of time they are summoned for and also have maximum possible hit points for their species. The sorcerer also uses all conjuration (summoning) spell-like abilities at a +1 caster level.

Power Manipulation (Su): If the Sorcerer has 9 or more ranks in Concentration, the Sorcerer has developed their innate control of magic to a degree where they can now manipulate the magical energy that they channel to increase its effectiveness.
Spellshaping (Su): If the sorcerer has any metamagic feats, they may take this ability which allows them to use metamagic in the reverse of what the feat was originally intended to do, thereby lowering the spell slot needed to cast the spell.

OK, I see what you are doing, and I think its a good idea. I feel like there is a better way to say it, but right now I am at a loss. Sorry, I hate to offer a negative comment and not follow it up with some kind of suggestion.

If you come up with something, great. The spellshaping is originally an idea taken from the Wild Sorcerer from the unofficial Dragonlance and then modified.

Towering Stature (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Child of Magic (Storm Giant) heredity, the sorcerer mysteriously gains in size after each night’s sleep over the following month until, at the end of that time they have reached the maximum height for their species – becoming of an imposing and impressive stature. The sorcerer gains a bonus to all Fortitude saves equal to their Charisma modifier, the Toughness feat, and a +1 enlargement bonus to all Intimidate skill checks.

Maybe additional levels to increase by a size catagory, with spell level prereqs?

I toyed with this idea but I am not sure I like the idea as it may quickly become unbalanced. Size in D&D is a major advantage because with Size comes Reach. For each extra 5’ of Reach beyond a Medium creature’s base 5’ reach you are effectively gaining a +1 Level Adjustment (per Savage Species). Personally I think this is a bit steep considering that I do not see having 5’ extra Reach is anywhere near the bonuses gained in a level in ANY class (including NPC classes). However, it is the basic rule.


Keep the thoughts and comments coming!!

 

[Stormborn]

I like the new versions of Summoner, Oracle, etc.

Still thinking about the Spellshaping.

 

[Khaalis]

Thanks Stormborn. Anyone else have any comments?

 

[Nightfall]

Khaal,

To answer your question its two fold answer: 1) I enjoy seeing what other people come up with in case I do want to use it. 2) I enjoy inflating my post count.

 

[Eolin]

Hmm... posted and it didn't post. weird.

Anyway, I'm yoinking the first post. Thought I'd letcha know.