Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules"

[Buttercup]

I don't agree that exempting sorcerers from using components, but requiring wizards to use them would necessarily unbalance the game. If you limit the sorcerer's spell list correctly, I think it should work fine. The two classes really fill different niches.

 

[Khaalis]

I never said it couldn't be mutable. I am saying that if mutability is taken to extremes, the flavor of Dungeons and Dragons is oftentimes lost.

In my opinion, as long as it has swords, magic, fantastic races, fantastic monsters and a medieval/renaissance feel to the world – its still fantasy regardless of the specifics of the classes. Even the Unearthed Arcana brings in Generic Classes. Though, if I really throw my personal opinion in, I think the Monk has no place in a standard Fantasy game that are Euro-renaissance oriented to begin with. Its when you start throwing technology, etc. into the mix that you lose the D&D feel.

If you look at the aforementioned monk on the web site link I sent you, I have done exactly that. However, while some abilities are chosen by the player, I have also left other quintessential monk abilities in, to retain the flavor of Dungeons and Dragons (which is what I'm talking about). It's about striking a fine balance. If you cannot be bothered retaining the existing "flavor" of each Dungeons and Dragons class, then take a look at the class system in d20 Modern. There are six character types; strong hero, fast hero, tough hero, smart hero, dedicated hero, charismatic here. The rest is up to the character.

You have taken a great step with the Monk, and it retains much of its eastern mystical feel. I personally would only have retained Unarmed, Flurry, Ki, and Perfect Self as set abilities. The rest I would make options for when (or if) they are chosen based on the path a particular monk chooses to follow. But again – it all depends on what your “vision” of a monk is. I see Monks as eastern practitioners of martial arts with the fantasy flair of actually being able to do supernatural things. Do all martial artists learn how to fall from great heights? No. Should they be able to? Yes. Should they be forced to? Not in my opinion.

We agree mutability is a boon, we just disagree on how far one can go and retain the flair and flavor of the class. As I said with the monk I would have retained all of the class abilities as options for the character to learn, but added a few other styles/paths for them to choose instead. For example, if I wanted to create a monk that was more akin to an aikido artist then I would rather have an ability akin to the Dwarf’s “Stability” (gain a +4 bonus to resist bull rush and trip) than “Slow Fall”. By taking away Slow Fall as a preset ability does it make the class feel any less like a Monk? Personally I think it makes it feel more like a monk to allow them to be less identical to one another and have more choices on the path they take.

Again we agree. But your version of the sorcerer is definitely heavy on the abilities and light on the self-determined background. I really don't think you can argue that with multiple heritage abilities. Moreover, I am not saying that this is bad for a radical concept sorcerer; just that it weakens the creative role of the each player and places more emphasis on abilities than role-playing. Again, don't get me wrong, I like abilities. But too many abilities is suffocating, especially when they start to define my entire character.
Whoa there buddy! Didn't say anything about freedom. No putting words in mouth, deal?
But all the fun heritage work has already been done by this sorcerer. That is how your sorcerer hand-holds the player. It takes the incentive to develop own backgrounds away. Everybody can choose their own spells and feats. You missed the point. This is not about ignoring your heritage. This is about creating more incentive for the player to come up with their own heritage, by not doing it for them.

Ok. I need a deeper clarification of what you mean by determination of background. You mention this repeatedly yet I do not see how the character is limited in their ability, nor their incentive, to create a character background in any way.

Also, how is it heavy on abilities? Do you mean the class progression? Or do you mean in volume of power choices? If you mean class progression, I feel I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it well balanced to all the other classes. If you mean in volume of choices, you will never convince me that less choices are better than more choices.

You also mention that too many abilities is suffocating and that they develop the class. As above, I will never see the ability to have choices of the path one chooses to follow as bad. There is nothing more I dislike than being pin-holed into one specific archetype. I also don’t see how having choices has anything to do with defining the character, nor how in specific the sorcerer’s choices. Class abilities are supposed to give definition to a class, they are what defines what a class is. You are what you can do. However there should be variety among those abilities and multiple paths that can be followed and explored.

But spell-like abilities (the elimination of all components) is not the way to go (that is, if you care one pip about game balance).
I believe the sorcerer was originally designed with spell-like abilities until the designers realized the foibles of such a mechanic. The flavor text, however, may not have changed, which explains the dichotomy between the class and the class description. In general, it is probably best to write the text last, after the class mechanic has been settled on.
Getting rid of components with spell-like abilities is unbalancing in the extreme. Either the sorcerer has to use components, or every other spellcaster has to get rid of them. It is one or the other (again, if even want to look at game balance). The trick is to design a game mechanic for making spell components unique to sorcerers (as I have done).

This is one point, for this particular build, you will never sway my mind on. If it makes it a power-gamer class then so be it. I personally agree with so many others, and do not see it as an imbalance. Other casters can overcome components as well and make up in balance with their versatility. I also feel that typical material components are designed as nothing more than money sinks (which any good DM can find plenty of) and an ancient hold-over from 25 years ago as a way to explain the “ritualistic” aspect of the wizard which is based all too much on stereotypical Shakespearean literature.

“Boil, Boil, Toil and Trouble. Fires Burn and Cauldrons Bubble. Eye of newt and toe of frog, wool of bat and tongue of dog.” blah blah…​

Why should a sorcerer who’s magic comes from within need to eat a spider, or need a piece of bat fur or coal to make his magic work? These are the trappings of scientific-methodology arcane ritual casting – which is the how the wizard is described. Why should a sorcerer have to chant an archaic formulaic string of words to harness magical power and turn it into a spell when it is already within the sorcerer, when the spell is a Part of the sorcerer’s being? The only component I might give you, is using SOME form of somatic component such as pointing at a victim or target (or the actual act of touching for touch spells). However, some other somatic components don’t make sense (Somatic component for Tree Form? WHY?).

The spells a character chooses provides that structure. Do you plan on creating specific abilities for every creature with spell-like abilities that a sorcerer could have possibly inherited their spells from? No, that would really make the sorcerer class heavy-handed and unwieldy. One ability, however, that provides consistent, slightly mutable, bonuses for different heritages would be a lot more consistent, open-ended, and empowering. For more detailed heritages, like I said, the material presented in this thread should not be wasted. There are so multiple mechanics in Dungeon and Dragons that could readily use this material.

If there need to be more heredities that don’t already fit into a given category, then they can be made by those who need them. Were the included Domains for the cleric all consuming? No. Were the Fighter feats granted to the Fighter all consuming? No. What about classes such as in Monte Cook’s Arcana Unearthed. Are the available Totem Warrior totems all encompassing or could other animals provide totems? What about Witches? Couldn’t there be a blood witch, soul witch, song witch, etc? Not all classes have every single possibility detailed in the core writing. Many are designed to allow variants at player/DM discretion, and that is exactly what this does. The heredity has a set pattern and includes the examples of common heredities. I even showed an example of one on the fly (Ghost) if someone REALLY wanted to say they could have a ghost as a forbearer. As for abilities, many of the abilities already included could easily be given access to new alternate heredities (if related to that heredity) and new one could be made (as with the ghost example). Something like Detect Thoughts is not appropriate for someone descended from say a Night Hag.

What I see on the boards and what reaches the gaming table are two very different extremes; clearing bisected by the dungeon master. On the boards, power-gamers can dream.

This statement combined with above statements about variants, is the truth of gaming material. No-one can create something that everyone likes. There will always be someone who wants to change or tweak or re-write or expand on something to suit their personal needs and tastes. For example, you might want to take this and make PrC’s from it, just as many people wanted the Paladin a PrC not a core class, versus myself who wanted a generic Holy Warrior that could represent the militant order of any religion that would host such an organization but gains its individual powers from that specific religion.

Not at all. Sorcerers can translate easily into prestige classes, and with no rewrite required. The power to cast spells comes from within. As sorcerers learn to channel that power into more and more powerful spells, they also learn how to shape the power itself, giving rise to a new manifestations of that power (I.E. defined by a prestige class).

However, this description shows no relation to suddenly developing roots to a heritage that weren’t there before. That I have a fundamental logic issue with.

Fair enough. But what I am saying is that all character classes deserve equal attention. The sorcerer is not special (the apple of my eye perhaps, but not inherently special).

Oh… and to what would be your great upset, I HAVE given the other classes this much “attention”.
I have made mutable, Alt.X, or companion versions of all of the classes (such as a non-mystical eastern-style Unarmed specialist). The Sorcerer is the last and hardest of the lot, though I found little that could really be done with the wizard though it did get some attention.

What I also see on the boards are a lot of dungeon masters who exert too much control over their players and think that power-gaming is a dirty word. A good player is equal parts power-gamer and role-player. Let them run off and create their own heritage. They still have to come back to the table, at which point the dungeon master is free to say yes or no. The dungeon master will always be the final check and balance of any game.
The thing is, I am not talking about letting players create their own abilities. I am talking about letting them choose their own heritage based on established rules with consistent bonuses, as per my suggestion above. A form of heritage specialization. Because if even one of your pre-created heritage packages offers more or less power than another, you have failed to balance the game mechanics.

See above my statements about the ability to free-form variant heredities.

I am sorry for being so blunt, but you are kidding yourself. Arcane spells are vastly more powerful. They draw on multiple types of energy and can inflict multiple types of damage. Putting combat aside, arcane spells also offer far more utility than divine spells. You can simply do more fantastical things with arcane magic than you can with divine magic, and that by design.
Slaying. Because when you die, that's it. Healing is only useful if you haven't died. Furthermore, you gain access to arcane damage spells far sooner than divine resurrection spells. And those arcane damage spells do not require expensive components or XP costs or both to cast. Resurrection spells do.

This is a personal viewpoint. I see where you are coming from and I do agree to a point. However, when you look at it from game balance, healing is just as powerful and important as battle magic. There are more ways to kill things than with spells and basically just as quick and effective. However, how many ways are their to heal? What is that arcane caster going to do when his battle spell fails to kill the foe who then rips him apart? He goes crawling to the divine caster to beg for healing. Can an arcane caster even bring the dead back to life? No. That’s a pretty powerful boon in a game centered around resurrection being viable (something I personally dislike). As for expensive components and XP costs – wizards have them too just for different things. What divine spell under 3rd level costs 100gp like a wizard’s spell? Both types of magic are balanced by their need in the game. Divine magic is weaker in combat, so divine casters fall back on more melee skills. Arcane casters aren’t given healing to prevent them from being better at keeping a party alive than killing foes or overcoming obstacles.

Also , only Wizards benefit from the mass utility of arcane magic because they are the only ones who can change their spell access from day to day and carry an arsenal of spells for any occasion to augment what they are prepared to cast in a given day. A sorcerer can never do these things. They are limited to the few spells they know and cannot even fall back on using any form of spell trigger/completion item (scroll, wand, etc.) for a spell they do not know. So there is no way to expand a sorcerer’s spell utility.

You just answered your own question. The flavor text is there for flavor. The game mechanics are there for game mechanics. And try as you might to find it, the flavor text says nothing about granting sorcerers spell-like abilities.
Only if you have based your entire premise for revising the sorcerer on the flavor text. It's a nice piece of creative writing designed to excite players about the class, and that's all. Moreover, it worked. But it is not a springboard to justify game mechanics. That is a flawed argument, especially one for game balance. While the flavor text is the only thing that differentiates the sorcerer from the wizard (right now), this thread exists to changes that. Remember, we agree that the sorcerer needed to be changed. But justifying wildly unbalancing game mechanics (I.E. spell-like abilities for 1st level characters) because of flavor text is folly. No. Flavor text is written to "describe" the game mechanics. In the case of the sorcerer, however, there is some discrepancy. That does not make it the rule. That makes it the exception to the rule.

And you are entitled to that opinion. It is not one I share. I feel that a class’s flavor text and the mech should meld. The mechanics of the class should not stand alone from the flavor of the class. I also do not feel that a class should be solely defined by its mech. Its flavor should lend as much fuel to the mech as the mech lends fuel to the flavor. Perfect Example = Monk, Druid, Ranger, etc. The flavor of the druid is what defined its mech, and in turn its unique mech is what helps define the druid as something different than a cleric of nature. Mecha and Flavor = Egg and the Chicken. There should be no one comes first – they evolve together, though if you really want to be technical about it – flavor always comes first and defines the mechanics as no mechanic can come into existence without a vision as to WHY it exists first. The idea, the reason, the “flavor” comes before that idea or flavor are quantified into mechanics.

JMHO

 

[Knight_Errant]

Does this make any sense?

It has been some time since I last checked this thread and I see that things have continued in my absence (what, the world doesn’t stop when I’m not in the room?). Before I offer any comments on the topic, I would like to respond to a few comments from Sonofapreacherman and Khaalis.

Posted by Son:
If you look at the aforementioned monk on the web site link I sent you, I have done exactly that. However, while some abilities are chosen by the player, I have also left other quintessential monk abilities in, to retain the flavor of Dungeons and Dragons (which is what I'm talking about). It's about striking a fine balance.

I agree. I think that what the Sorcerer class needs at this point is some definition of what a “quintessential” ability is for the class. While we can argue all day about the fact that there could be literally thousands of options to choose from; this would still not answer the question. Each class that is presented in 3.5E has a niche it occupies. Yes, there are many variations that can be applied to that core focus but that is what I am getting at; the sorcerer has no core. As it stands (and I don’t think many would argue this) it has no easily defined niche or place among the other core classes.

This should be one of the goals of this thread is to establish what constitutes the sorcerer class. As another poster (forgive me for not remembering your name and being too lazy to scroll up and find it) pointed out—the sorcerer is brand new. There is no history of the class that we can fall back on to draw our ideas from. All we have to go on (at the moment) is what is written in the PHB and what we can come up with to better define the class.

To summarize here: I agree with Son in that there is a delicate balance here that should be considered more closely. I, for one, do not see this argument as opinion based; it is entirely factual. This version of the sorcerer should attempt to satisfy two conditions: 1) define the class and its basic niche in the game, and 2) allow the player to customize (to a point) his sorcerer based on his individual background and so-called “heritage.”

Posted by Son:
But your version of the sorcerer is definitely heavy on the abilities and light on the self-determined background. I really don't think you can argue that with multiple heritage abilities. Moreover, I am not saying that this is bad for a radical concept sorcerer; just that it weakens the creative role of the each player and places more emphasis on abilities than role-playing. Again, don't get me wrong, I like abilities. But too many abilities is suffocating, especially when they start to define my entire character.

While this has been asked and answered several times by my posting; I feel it necessary to interject a few thoughts here.

I think what Son is saying is that the current build you are working on is radical in that it offers predetermined paths and an extensive list of abilities and spell-paths that can be chosen based on heritage. IMO what Son is getting at is this: this build of the sorcerer cannot compare to any of the other base classes because it has far more detail and depth of choices in its construction.

I am not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing; what I am saying is that you cannot have the number of choices you currently have and create a class that will “fit” in with the other core classes. Is this wrong? Is it right? That is a matter of opinion. What is not a matter of opinion is that you simply cannot open the PHB and point to any other class that lays out in detail a list of abilities that you can choose from to customize your class in that manner.

To a point I agree with what Son is saying here; namely that too many choices is not a good thing. Again, that is an opinion, but it is one based on precedent: this build is not the format of the PHB. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that the PHB is the best written RPG of all time. I am saying that when you design a class (or a revision of one) you do need to take into account this fact.

Posted by Son:
You missed the point. This is not about ignoring your heritage. This is about creating more incentive for the player to come up with their own heritage, by not doing it for them.

The way I interpret this is that the current build has set “paths” of heritage that a player must choose from. This is what is being objected to. Take the Fighter example for instance; each player receives the same basic core abilities, i.e. hit dice, saves, BAB, and feat progression. Where each fighter differs is in that feat selection. That is up to the player entirely to choose. To equate this to the sorcerer build you are working on it would be like presenting a list of “packages” in the fighter class description.
For instance, if you wanted to play a “swashbuckler” style fighter, choose the Bucklemeswash package: (see table below)
Level1: Dodge
Level2: Expertise
Level4: Mobility
Level6: Improved Disarm
Level8: Spring Attack
Level10: Combat Reflexes
And so on…

The point being that the developers of 3E could have conceived of every possible “type” of fighter and made pre-fab packages for each of them and then required the player to choose one of them at first level. The fact is that they didn’t do this for several reasons (though, I don’t pretend to know what they were thinking when they wrote the sorcerer) because it would be seen as heavy-handed and result in what you object to most of all; namely being pinholed into so called “options.”
The amusing part about this is that they changed this philosophy slightly in 3.5E with the Ranger class by allowing the player to choose 2 separate “paths” for their character. However, both of the options they presented for the Ranger are viewed by the majority of players as niche abilities of the ranger class.

Posted by Khaalis:
You also mention that too many abilities is suffocating and that they develop the class. As above, I will never see the ability to have choices of the path one chooses to follow as bad. There is nothing more I dislike than being pin-holed into one specific archetype. I also don’t see how having choices has anything to do with defining the character, nor how in specific the sorcerer’s choices. Class abilities are supposed to give definition to a class, they are what defines what a class is. You are what you can do. However there should be variety among those abilities and multiple paths that can be followed and explored.

I don’t think that anyone here is disputing the ability to have choices for the sorcerer class. The dispute lies in the fact that this build has delineated those choices ahead of time by developing the heritage chains. What Son is saying is that there should be a more generic (yes I said it and I’m not afraid to use the word) template for the sorcerer class. It should have some abilities that define it, as you said: Class abilities are supposed to give definition to a class, they are what defines what a class is, rather than predetermining all of the possible themes a sorcerer could draw from to define himself.
Also, realize that the dislike of being “pin-holed” into one specific archetype, is your own personal taste and not necessarily what is or could be considered in the realm of game mechanics or balance issues. That is not a shot either, I am merely pointing out that you can and probably will disagree with what a core class can be broken down into in terms of mechanics and balance. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with that, my point is that I think you (and all of us) would be better served by focusing more on what defines a sorcerer and sets him apart from the other core classes, rather than developing various specific paths he could choose from.

What I would like to see happen is this: devise a generic sorcerer (yes, I used the g word again) first—then work on highly focused versions of the class; or perhaps a mechanics procedure to reach a specialized version, rather than starting out specialized.

The flavor text of the sorcerer seems to indicate that they have draconic blood—that seems like a good place to start. Perhaps coming up with fixed (gasp!) abilities at incremental levels that would allow some level of customization (similar to the ranger/druid or fighter) among these generics. The origin of the sorcerer’s power is less important than the feel of the class. They get their power from within and they have to teach themselves how to wield it—that is essentially their niche among the 3.5E classes. I think if we start from there we might be able to come up with a more genericized version that would fit more with the format of the core rules classes.

Finally, let me say that I like what I have read so far. It is really becoming one of my favorite classes and topics of debate. The amount of work you have put into this is astounding and of good quality. I am suggesting starting small and working up to that is all.

That’s all folks.

 

[Khaalis]

GENERIC Hedge-Wizard Sorcerer

Well since this is what some people seem to want…. Here is the Generic Sorcerer (aka Hedge-Wizard) with only a hint of Heredity to link it to the flavor text. I think this is a solid build. It offers 19 Class abilities plus Feats to be chosen for the 8 variable Sorcerer Abilities gained over 20 levels.


GAME RULE INFORMATION
Sorcerers have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Charisma determines the effectiveness of a Sorcerer’s magic. To cast spells, a Sorcerer must have a Charisma score of 10+ the spell’s level. Sorcerers gain bonus spells based upon Charisma. The Difficulty Class of a saving throw against a Sorcerer’s spells is 10 + Spell Level + Sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6

CLASS SKILLS
The class skills of the Sorcerer are: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Profession, and Sense Motive.
Training (Ex): Sorcerers come from a variety of backgrounds and learn their magic from vastly different sources. At 1st level the sorcerer may choose from the following options to reflect their training and background.

• Add two skills that are normally non-exclusive, and add them as class skills.
• Add one skill that is normally non-exclusive, and add it as class skills, as well as gaining a +2 bonus to that skill.

Skill Points for 1st Level: (4+INT modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+INT modifier

Table Data
BAB: Poor
Saves: Will Good
Special Abilities:
1…..Aura, 2 Sorcerer Abilities, Spells
2….. Sorcerer Ability
5….. Sorcerer Ability
8….. Sorcerer Ability
11… Sorcerer Ability
14… Sorcerer Ability
17… Sorcerer Ability
20… Sorcerer Ability

CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are class features for the Sorcerer.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Since sorcerers have more time to study the art of fighting skills than wizards, though not highly skilled, they are proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor, but not with shields. Note that sorcerers still suffer from arcane spell failure while in armor, but do not suffer the non-proficiency penalty to other actions for wearing light armor.

Aura (Ex): Similar to clerics, sorcerers have a particularly powerful aura of magic about them since they are a focus of innate magic. When viewed by detect magic or arcane sight the sorcerer radiates with the presence of a single magical aura of universal origin unless the sorcerer has specialized their spell selection in a school of magic. The DC to determine a specific type of magic to the aura requires a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15+Sorcrerer class level).

Spells: As the core sorcerer with the following changes and additional notations.

• Spells Known: A sorcerer’s spell selection is limited when compared to that of a wizard. A sorcerer begins play knowing 6 0-Level spells (Cantrips), and 2 1st-Level spells of their choice. At each new experience level, the sorcerer gains 2 new spells that may be acquired form any spell level that they currently may utilize.
• Evolving Spells: Sorcerer spells can also grow in time and evolve into more powerful versions of old spells. This concept is based on the concept of spell paths (by Sean K. Reynolds), a series of spells that build and grow upon the same basic premise (see “Spell Path Examples” in magic.doc).
  When a sorcerer acquires new known spells, and they have a spell that exists on a spell path with an appropriate higher-level spell available, the sorcerer can choose to “upgrade” the spell path spell they already know, replacing the original spell with the upgraded spell. They may then fill the abandoned spell slot with another spell that is available to them of the same spell level. A sorcerer can only upgrade one spell at any given level, even if they have multiple options for upgrading.
  [Example: Vond is a Sor5 who knows the invisibility spell. Upon reaching Sor6 he chooses to acquire 2 new 3rd-level spells known. Invisibility is a 2nd-level spell on the Path of Invisibility and invisibility sphere is a 3rd-level spell on the Path of Invisibility. Vond decides to upgrade his invisibility to invisibility sphere, which uses one of his new 3rd-level spell known slot. He now has an open spell known slot at 2nd level (formerly occupied by invisibility), which he may use to learn any other 2nd-level spell available to him.]
• Also note that sorcerers are very limited in the Spell Trigger items that they may use. Sorcerers may only use spell trigger items for spells that they know, as seen on p.213 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, “Specifically, anyone with a spell on their spell list, or in the instance of sorcerers, on their Spells Known list, knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell.”

SORCERER ABILITY OPTIONS
Sorcerer Ability: A sorcerer is only a defined term in that sorcerers are known to be arcane casters who derive their magic from some unknown internal source. Individual sorcerers can cover quite a number of concepts such as hedge wizards, fortune hunters, opportunists, charlatans, alchemists, demonologists, planar travelers, street wizards, investigators, oracles and so many other concepts. The varied abilities required by each different concept are developed by the individual over time and reflect the sorcerer’s dealings with those that help them learn their specific craft. No two sorcerers should ever be exactly the same in their skills and the only difference should not just be their spells known. “Sorcerer Abilities” are gained as shown in the progression table. At each level that sorcerer abilities are gained, the sorcerer chooses one option from the list below (Options). Note that some of these abilities have prerequisites that are required to attain the ability.

Arcane Sense (Su): If the sorcerer has 6 or more ranks in Concentration, they may become naturally attuned to the flow of magical energy in all things around them.
Arcane Sense: The sorcerer can feel magic flow through them as well as sense its presence and flow in all things around them as well. As a result of this deep attunement, the sorcerer’s senses allow them to see as if using detect magic (as the spell) at will. This ability is activated as a free action and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description).
Arcane Sense Identification: If the sorcerer has 5 ranks or more in Knowledge (Arcana) and the Arcane Sense ability, they can attune their Arcane Senses into an innate ability to read the magical aura in devices as well as see the flow and presence of magic. The sorcerer may identify magical items by studying them using their ability to Detect Magic and combining it with their Knowledge (Arcana) skill. They must spend one hour inspecting the item and testing it. In the process of studying charged items, this process automatically burns one charge, though the energy seeps from the item harmlessly. After one hour, the sorcerer makes a Knowledge (Arcana) check with a DC determined by the table below. If successful, the sorcerer has identified one of the item’s magical properties. If they fail, they immediately activate the item (targeting the sorcerer). Item Type (DC): Armor (20), Weapon (20), Potion (15), Ring (25), Rod (20), Scroll, (15), Staff (25), Wand (20), Wondrous Item (25).
Improved Magic Sense: If the sorcerer has 6 or more ranks in Spot and has at least a 13+ Wisdom and has the Arcane Sense ability, they may learn to focus and intensify the manifestation of their Arcane Senses to the point that they become so attuned to magic as to allow them to see as if using arcane sight (as the spell) at will. This supernatural ability is activated as a free action and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description).
Arcane True Sight: If the sorcerer has 8 or more ranks in Spot and has at least a 13+ Wisdom and has the Improved Arcane Sense ability, they may learn to focus and intensify the manifestation of their Arcane Senses to the point that they become so attuned to magic as to allow them to see as if using true sight (as the spell) at will. This supernatural ability is always active.

Arcane Shielding (Su): If the sorcerer is able to cast 4th level spells, they gain a protective aura that protects against attacks and effects. This ability may be activated as a move-equivalent action, a number of times per day equal to 3+ their Charisma modifier.
Arcane Shielding I: This ability provides a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saving throws. This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.
Arcane Shielding II: If the sorcerer has the Arcane Shielding I ability and can cast spells of 7th level, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to themselves and all those within 10’ of the sorcerer. It also functions in the same manner as a lesser globe of invulnerability spell (at the sorcerer’s class level). This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.

Arcane Soul (Su): If the sorcerer can cast 7th level spells, they can draw on the power of their magic to gain spell resistance.
Arcane Soul I: This ability provides spell resistance equal to the sorcerer’s class level.
Arcane Soul II: If the sorcerer has the Arcane Soul I ability and can cast spells of 4th level, this ability provides spell resistance equal to 5+ the sorcerer’s class level.
Arcane Soul III: If the sorcerer has the Arcane Soul II ability and can cast spells of 7th level, this ability provides spell resistance equal to 10+ the sorcerer’s class level.

Bonus Feat: The sorcerer may choose a bonus feat from the list below, though any necessary prerequisites must be bet. (For other sources such as 3rd party material these feats should focus on the sorcerer’s spells, social skills, heredity, and any other arcane pursuit.)
Players Handbook: Alertness, Augment Summoning, Combat Casting, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Counterspell, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Magical Affinity, Negotiator, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Toughness
Example Other Material: Forgotten Realms: Arcane Preparation, Blooded, Bullheaded, Courteous Magocracy, Discipline, Improved Counterspell, Luck of Heroes, Resist Poison, Silver Palm, Smooth Talk, Street Smart, Strong Soul, Survivor

Descriptor Focus (Su): The sorcerer may choose one descriptor that they hold as a specialty. Spells of this descriptor are cast as if the sorcerer were one level higher. When this ability is chosen the sorcerer is banned from learning that descriptors opposition descriptor, or if there is no opposition they must choose a banned descriptor.

Familiar (Su): The sorcerer may choose to summon a familiar. The sorcerer may utilize all of the associated information on familiars.

Hereditary Ability (Sp): The sorcerer may choose any 0-level or 1st-level spell that relates to a specified heredity theme, that they may cast as a spell-like ability, at their character level a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. Some examples are that a celestial sorcerer may detect evil, or giantish sorcerer may be able to enlarge person.

Heritage Spells: This ability may only be chosen at first level. The sorcerer has a stronger link to their ancient magical heritage than most wizards and gains one bonus spell of their choice, per spell level, that forms a specific thematic spell list. An example of such a path could be one based on Draconic heritage as follows. Dragon Spell Path as one bonus spell-like ability per spell level.
0: Resistance………………………....5: Mind Fog
1: Comprehend Languages………6: True Seeing
2: Darkvision……………………….....7: Vision
3: Protection from Elements…….8: Mind Blank
4: Fear………………………………......9: Dominate Monster

Inspiring Aura (Su): The sorcerer’s magic combined with their charismatic nature combines to give off an aura that effects themselves and their allies.
Inspiring Aura I: This ability provides a +1 morale bonus to all saving throws and attack rolls to the sorcerer and all allies within 10’, a number of times day per equal to their Charisma modifier. This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.
Inspiring Aura II: If the sorcerer has the Inspiring Aura I ability and can cast spells of 4th level, this ability provides a +2 morale bonus to all saving throws and attack rolls to the sorcerer and all allies within 20’, a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.
Inspiring Aura III: If the sorcerer has the Inspiring Aura II ability and can cast spells of 7th level, this ability provides a +3 morale bonus to all saving throws and attack rolls to the sorcerer and all allies within 30’, a number of times per day equal to 3+ their Charisma modifier. This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.

Metamagic Feats: The sorcerer may choose a bonus metamagic feat. Metamagic feats are handled normally, taking a full round action to augment a spell with a metamagic effect.

Power Manipulation (Su): If the Sorcerer has 9 or more ranks in Concentration, the Sorcerer has developed their innate control of magic to a degree where they can now manipulate the magical energy that they channel to increase its effectiveness.
Power Manipulation I: The sorcerer may increase the potency of the spell-like abilities shaped, adding up to their Charisma modifier in effective caster levels for determining spell-like ability effects. The drawback to this is that the sorcerer sustains 1d4 points of physical damage and 1d4 points of subdual damage per additional effective level of increased potency.
Power Manipulation II: If the sorcerer has 17 or more ranks in Concentration and has Power Manipulation I, the sorcerer has further developed their innate control of magic to a degree where they can now master channeling harmful pre-channeled magical energy. This allows the sorcerer the ability to attempt to absorb hostile pre-channeled magical energy. When the sorcerer is targeted by a spell or spell-like ability, they may choose to forego a saving throw and attempt to absorb the spell instead. Spells that allow no saving throw or that have the “harmless” saving throw designator may not be absorbed. Once this choice is made, the sorcerer makes a Will save against a DC of 15+2 per spell level of the spell they are trying to absorb. If successful, they may refresh a used spell slot of any spell level lower than the spell level of the spell they just absorbed. If the attempt fails the sorcerer takes the full brunt of the spell as well as an additional 1d4 subdual damage per spell level of the spell they were struck by. Note that metamagic feat levels do count toward the total level of the spell, so a maximized fireball is considered a 5th level spell for all purposes.
[Example: Vond attempts to absorb a 3rd level spell (Lightning Bolt) targeting him. He must make a Will save of DC 21 (15+2/level). If successful he may refresh a used spell slot of up to 2nd level. If he fails he will take the full damage of the Lightning Bolt as well as an additional 3d4 subdual damage (possibly enough to kill him).]

Power of Magic (Su): If the sorcerer can cast 2nd level spells their innate power has grown enough to grant them a bonus to all saving throws equal to their Charisma modifier.

Purity (Su): If the sorcerer can cast 2nd level spells they can learn to channel their magic to purify their body.
Purity I: This purity of body grants the sorcerer immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).
Purity II: If the sorcerer can cast 5th level spells and has the Purity I ability, they can gain immunity to all diseases including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).
Purity III: If the sorcerer can cast 8th level spells and has the Purity II ability, they can gain immunity to all poisons.

Sorcerous Specialization: This ability may only be chosen at 1st level. The sorcerer must choose a single school of magic known as their specialty school. The sorcerer is most attuned with the spells from that given school. When choosing the specialist school, the sorcerer must also choose opposition schools that are banned to them. If they choose to specialize in Divination they may choose any one other school (excluding Universal). If they choose any other school they must choose any two schools of opposition except Divination and Universal.
…..The benefit of sorcerous specialization is that the sorcerer gain one extra spell known of their choice per spell level, from their specialist school only. They also increase the save DC of all spells used from the Specialty School by +1.

Speed Use (Su): If the Sorcerer has 18 or more ranks in Concentration, they may once per day, use any spell they know (and have an available slot of the appropriate spell level to use) as free action rather than as a standard action. A speed cast affected spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

Spellshaping (Su): If the sorcerer has any metamagic feats, they may take this ability which allows them to use metamagic in the reverse of what the feat was originally intended to do, thereby lowering the spell slot needed to cast the spell. This ability may be taken multiple times, applying its benefits to a different metamagic feat each time. Example, a sorcerer who uses the Empower metamagic feat can increase all numeric effects of a spell by one-half, and thereby increasing the spell level by two. If the same sorcerer then takes the Spellshaping ability, it would allow them to reverse the effect of the Empower feat, thus lowering all numeric effects to one-half of the original value, and taking up a spell slot two levels lower. In this way a very low powered fireball for example, could be cast using a 1st level spell slot.

Superior Vision (Su): The sorcerers innate magic grants them Darkvision 60' and Low-Light Vision.

Weapon Channel (Su): If the sorcerer can cast 2nd level spells they can draw on the force of their magic and learn to channel a fraction of that magic into any weapon they use. Any weapon wielded by the sorcerer is considered magic for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. This does not provide any other bonuses.


Thoughts?

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Knight_Errant.

I just wanted to say that it's been a long time since anybody has actually read my mind. Thanks for "getting it".

 

[Khaalis]

If that is still too muable for you, lets build on the only power that seems to be CORE to the Sorcerer as described in the Flavor Text.

Here is purely Generic Non-Heritage Sorcerer (aka Hedge-Wizard). I think this is a solid build. It offers a variant version of the WotC Innate Spell feat for the 8 variable Sorcerer Abilities gained over 20 levels.


GAME RULE INFORMATION
Sorcerers have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Charisma determines the effectiveness of a Sorcerer’s magic. To cast spells, a Sorcerer must have a Charisma score of 10+ the spell’s level. Sorcerers gain bonus spells based upon Charisma. The Difficulty Class of a saving throw against a Sorcerer’s spells is 10 + Spell Level + Sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6

CLASS SKILLS
The class skills of the Sorcerer are: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Profession, Sense Motive and Spellcraft.
Skill Points for 1st Level: (4+INT modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+INT modifier

Table Data
BAB: Poor
Saves: Will Good
Special Abilities:
1…..Aura, Spell Path, Spells
2….. Innate Ability
5….. Innate Ability
8….. Improved Innate Ability
11… Improved Innate Ability
14… Greater Innate Ability
17… Greater Innate Ability
20… Master Innate Ability

CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are class features for the Sorcerer.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Since sorcerers have more time to study the art of fighting skills than wizards, though not highly skilled, they are proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor, but not with shields. Note that sorcerers still suffer from arcane spell failure while in armor, but do not suffer the non-proficiency penalty to other actions for wearing light armor.

Aura (Ex): Similar to clerics, sorcerers have a particularly powerful aura of magic about them since they are a focus of innate magic. When viewed by detect magic or arcane sight the sorcerer radiates with the presence of a single magical aura of universal origin unless the sorcerer has specialized their spell selection in a school of magic. The DC to determine a specific type of magic to the aura requires a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15+Sorcrerer class level).

Spells: As the core sorcerer with the following changes and additional notations.

• Spells Known: A sorcerer’s spell selection is limited when compared to that of a wizard. A sorcerer begins play knowing 6 0-Level spells (Cantrips), and 2 1st-Level spells of their choice. At each new experience level, the sorcerer gains 2 new spells that may be acquired form any spell level that they currently may utilize.
• Evolving Spells: Sorcerer spells can also grow in time and evolve into more powerful versions of old spells. This concept is based on the concept of spell paths (by Sean K. Reynolds), a series of spells that build and grow upon the same basic premise (see “Spell Path Examples” in magic.doc).
  .....When a sorcerer acquires new known spells, and they have a spell that exists on a spell path with an appropriate higher-level spell available, the sorcerer can choose to “upgrade” the spell path spell they already know, replacing the original spell with the upgraded spell. They may then fill the abandoned spell slot with another spell that is available to them of the same spell level. A sorcerer can only upgrade one spell at any given level, even if they have multiple options for upgrading.
  [Example: Vond is a Sor5 who knows the invisibility spell. Upon reaching Sor6 he chooses to acquire 2 new 3rd-level spells known. Invisibility is a 2nd-level spell on the Path of Invisibility and invisibility sphere is a 3rd-level spell on the Path of Invisibility. Vond decides to upgrade his invisibility to invisibility sphere, which uses one of his new 3rd-level spell known slot. He now has an open spell known slot at 2nd level (formerly occupied by invisibility), which he may use to learn any other 2nd-level spell available to him.]

Spell Path: Each sorcerer’s magic is somewhat unique. At 1st level the sorcerer may choose one of the following magic paths.
Sorcerous Specialization: The sorcerer chooses a single school of magic known as their specialty school. The sorcerer is most attuned with the spells from that given school. When choosing the specialist school, the sorcerer must also choose opposition schools that are banned to them. If they choose to specialize in Divination they may choose any one other school (excluding Universal). If they choose any other school they must choose any two schools of opposition except Divination and Universal. The benefit of sorcerous specialization is that the sorcerer gain one extra spell known of their choice per spell level, from their specialist school only. They also increase the save DC of all spells used from the Specialty School by +1.
Descriptor Focus: The sorcerer may choose one descriptor that they hold as a specialty. Spells of this descriptor are cast as if the sorcerer were one level higher and gain one bonus known spell per spell level of that descriptor. When this ability is chosen the sorcerer is banned from learning that descriptors opposition descriptor, or if there is no opposition they must choose a banned descriptor. They also increase the save DC of all spells used from the Specialty School by +1.
edit Domain Sorcerer: The sorcerer chooses an Arcane Domain from those listed on p.57 of Unearted Arcana. This domain may never be changed. A domain sorcerer gains the spells of their arcane domain as bonus known spells as soon as they are able to cast spells of that spell level. These bonus domain spells are cast as if the sorcerer were one level higher.
The domains a sorcerer may choose are: Abjuration, Antimagic, Battle, Cold, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Fire, Illusion, Necromancy, Storm, Transmutation.

Commentary
Other domains may be developed from this concept including spells that may not be of the Wizard spell list, and even clerical domains for anyone seeking to build a Divinely oriented sorcerer. Most any style of sorcerer from fiction can be built in this manner.
Examples:
Summoning Domain: 0 - Create Water; 1st - Summon Monster I; 2nd - Summon Monster II; 3rd - Summon Monster III; 4th - Summon Monster IV; 5th - Summon Monster V; 6th - Summon Monster VI; 7th - Summon Monster VII; 8th - Summon Monster VIII; 9th - Summon Monster IX
Beastmaster Domain: (Defenders of the Faith) 0 - Daze; 1st - Charm Animal; 2nd - Beast; 3rd - Animal Trance; 4th - Bear's Heart; 5th - Animal Growth; 6th - Summon Nature's Ally VI; 7th - Animal Shapes; 8th - Summon Nature's Ally VIII; 9th - Shapechange
Health Domain: 0 - Purify Food & Water; 1st - Remove Fear; 2nd - Remove Paralysis; 3rd - Remove Disease; 4th - Neutralize Poison; 5th - Death Ward; 6th - Break Enchantment; 7th - Cure Serious Wounds, Mass; 8th - Heal; 9th - Regenerate​

Innate Ability (Sp): The sorcerer is a manifestation of innate magic prowess. This innate magic grows in them slowly and eventually becomes a part of them. The sorcerer may choose any spell they can cast of up to 1st spell level. They can now cast this spell at will as a spell-like ability, a number of times per day equal to their Charisma bonus. This does not count against the sorcerer's spells per day. When a spell is chosen to grow into a spell-like ability, the sorcerer may choose to “lose” the old spell as a known spell in exchange for learning a new spell known. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. If the innate ability has an XP component, the sorcerer must still pay the XP cost each time they use the spell-like ability. If the innate ability has a material component with negligible cost (under 1gp), they do not need the focus to use the spell-like ability. If the innate ability has a material component for which a gold piece value is given, the sorcerer needs that component to use the spell-like ability. Since this is a spell-like ability and not an actual spell, it cannot be convert into any other spell nor given up to pay a spell slot cost, nor can it be converted to a signature spell.

Improved Innate Ability (Sp): This manifestation of innate magic prowess is identical to the Innate Ability power except that the sorcerer may choose any spell they can cast of up to 2nd spell level.

Greater Innate Ability (Sp): This manifestation of innate magic prowess is identical to the Innate Ability power except that the sorcerer may choose any spell they can cast of up to 3rd spell level.

Master Innate Ability (Sp): This manifestation of innate magic prowess is identical to the Innate Ability power except that the sorcerer may choose any spell they can cast of up to 4th spell level.


Addendum
On another note, if you wish to blend the two concepts or feel this build grants too many spell like-abilities, you could alter the table as follows.
Special Abilities:
1…..Aura, Spell Path, Spells
2….. Innate Ability
5….. Sorcerer Ability
8….. Improved Innate Ability
11… Sorcerer Ability
14… Greater Innate Ability
17… Sorcerer Ability
20… Master Innate Ability

And give a limited number of Sorcerer Abilities.
Arcane Sense: The sorcerer can feel magic flow through them as well as sense its presence and flow in all things around them as well. As a result of this deep attunement, the sorcerer’s senses allow them to see as if using detect magic (as the spell) at will. This ability is activated as a free action and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description).

Arcane Soul (Su): If the sorcerer can cast 7th level spells, they can draw on the power of their magic to gain spell resistance equal to 10+ the sorcerer’s class level.

Bonus Feat: The sorcerer may choose a bonus feat from the list below, though any necessary prerequisites must be bet. (For other sources such as 3rd party material these feats should focus on the sorcerer’s spells, social skills, heredity, and any other arcane pursuit.)
Players Handbook: Alertness, Augment Summoning, Combat Casting, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Counterspell, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Magical Affinity, Negotiator, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Toughness

Familiar (Su): The sorcerer may choose to summon a familiar. The sorcerer may utilize all of the associated information on familiars.

Metamagic Feats: The sorcerer may choose a bonus metamagic feat. Metamagic feats are handled normally, taking a full round action to augment a spell with a metamagic effect.

Power of Magic (Su): If the sorcerer can cast 2nd level spells their innate power has grown enough to grant them a bonus to all saving throws equal to their Charisma modifier.

Purity (Su): If the sorcerer can cast 2nd level spells they can learn to channel their magic to purify their body. This purity of body grants the sorcerer immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).

Superior Vision (Su): The sorcerers innate magic grants them Darkvision 60' and Low-Light Vision.

Weapon Channel (Su): If the sorcerer can cast 2nd level spells they can draw on the force of their magic and learn to channel a fraction of that magic into any weapon they use. Any weapon wielded by the sorcerer is considered magic for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. This does not provide any other bonuses.


Thoughts?

 

[Knight_Errant]

Knight_Errant.

I just wanted to say that it's been a long time since anybody has actually read my mind. Thanks for "getting it".

"These are not the droids you are looking for."

Sometimes my psychic powers work, sometimes they dont.

 

[Knight_Errant]

Posted by Khaalis
If that is still too muable for you, lets build on the only power that seems to be CORE to the Sorcerer as described in the Flavor Text.

Here is purely Generic Non-Heritage Sorcerer (aka Hedge-Wizard). I think this is a solid build. It offers a variant version of the WotC Innate Spell feat for the 8 variable Sorcerer Abilities gained over 20 levels.

After reading it, I tend to agree that it’s pretty solid. Remember: generic is good when you are working with a concept as flawed as the PHB’s sorcerer. Going with 8 abilities gained over 20 levels is the formula (whether we like that or not) that WotC prefers; so lets see where that gets us.

Posted by Khaalis:
Aura (Ex): Similar to clerics, sorcerers have a particularly powerful aura of magic about them since they are a focus of innate magic. When viewed by detect magic or arcane sight the sorcerer radiates with the presence of a single magical aura of universal origin unless the sorcerer has specialized their spell selection in a school of magic. The DC to determine a specific type of magic to the aura requires a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15+Sorcrerer class level).

I really like this ability. I think it adds some of the flavor that is missing from the class.

Posted by Khaalis:
Spell Path: Each sorcerer’s magic is somewhat unique. At 1st level the sorcerer may choose one of the following magic paths.
Sorcerous Specialization: The sorcerer chooses a single school of magic known as their specialty school. The sorcerer is most attuned with the spells from that given school. When choosing the specialist school, the sorcerer must also choose opposition schools that are banned to them. If they choose to specialize in Divination they may choose any one other school (excluding Universal). If they choose any other school they must choose any two schools of opposition except Divination and Universal. The benefit of sorcerous specialization is that the sorcerer gain one extra spell known of their choice per spell level, from their specialist school only. They also increase the save DC of all spells used from the Specialty School by +1.
Descriptor Focus: The sorcerer may choose one descriptor that they hold as a specialty. Spells of this descriptor are cast as if the sorcerer were one level higher. When this ability is chosen the sorcerer is banned from learning that descriptors opposition descriptor, or if there is no opposition they must choose a banned descriptor.
Thematic Bonus Spells: The sorcerer has a strong link to a specific theme of spells. This grants the sorcerer one bonus spell of their choice, per spell level, that forms a specific thematic spell list. An example of such a path could be one based on Summoning granting the sorcerer a bonus known spell of Summon Monster 1-9 at each spell level.

This is, IMO, the way to go with the sorcerer’s abilities. If there are several options to choose from that define how their magic is different from that of the wizard I think we have accomplished something. I think the last two are the best two options; the descriptor focus and thematic bonus spells.
I’m not terribly excited about the “specialist” sorcerer but I realize that is more a matter of personal taste than anything else (though I could make a convincing argument against it). The Thematic Bonus spell really lets the sorcerer shine while maintaining some form of balance. Additionally, there is nothing heavy-handed or unwieldly about these options.

Posted by Khaalis:
Innate Ability (Sp): The sorcerer is a manifestation of innate magic prowess. This innate magic grows in them slowly and eventually becomes a part of them. The sorcerer may choose any spell they can cast of up to 1st spell level. They can now cast this spell at will as a spell-like ability, once per day equal to their Charisma bonus. This does not count against the sorcerer's spells per day. When a spell is chosen to grow into a spell-like ability, the sorcerer may choose to “loses” the old spell as a known spell in exchange for the new spell known. The new spell-like ability’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. If the innate spell-like ability has an XP component, the sorcerer must still pay the XP cost each time they use the spell-like ability. If the innate spell-like ability has a material component with negligible cost (under 1gp), they do not need the focus to use the spell-like ability. If the innate spell-like ability has a material component for which a gold piece value is given, the sorcerer needs that component to use the spell-like ability. Since this is a spell-like ability and not an actual spell, it cannot be convert into any other spell nor given up to pay a spell slot cost, nor can it be converted to a signature spell.

Now we seem to be cooking with gas. I think it should read: “The sorcerer may choose any spell they can cast of up to 1st level. They can now cast this spell at will as a spell-like ability, a number of times a day equal to their Charisma bonus.”

The next part confuses me slightly:
“When a spell is chosen to grow into a spell-like ability, the sorcerer may choose to “loses” the old spell as a known spell in exchange for the new spell known. The new spell-like ability’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged.”

Does this mean that if I know Magic Missile and I want that to become my Innate Ability spell that I “lose” it as a known spell and may replace it with a new, previously unknown, spell of 1st level? If I did read that correctly I think the only issue that could be raised is the additional known spells that a sorcerer would pick up from this ability.
However, I do not foresee this as a huge balance issue as they know relatively few spells as it stands. I am simply pointing out that it could become an issue if they are acquiring spells too quickly in this manner.

Overall, I think this is a good place to start from and work to refine what is here while keeping options open to add new ideas as they come up. This, however, I think is on track with what Son and myself were talking about previously.
Good job.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

I just noticed that in addition to using the aura of sorcerers from my web site, you have also picked up the restricted Spell Trigger list.

Also note that sorcerers are very limited in the Spell Trigger items that they may use. Sorcerers may only use spell trigger items for spells that they know, as seen on p.213 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, "Specifically, anyone with a spell on their spell list, or in the instance of sorcerers, on their Spells Known list, knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell."

This is a good rule for any alternative sorcerer to my way of thinking.

Sorcerers can only ever know a "finite" number of spells, defined by their Spells Known chart. Wizards, on the other hand, have the "potential" to learn every single spell on their spell list, restricted only by their resourcefulness. Sorcerers don't have that potential. After a certain point, a sorcerer stops learning new spells, hitting a ceiling. Therefore, due to their innate (rather than studied) understanding of spells, the spells they don't know completely escape them (as per my "errata" above).

-----

CLASS SKILLS
The class skills of the Sorcerer are: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Profession, and Sense Motive.
Training (Ex): Sorcerers come from a variety of backgrounds and learn their magic from vastly different sources. At 1st level the sorcerer may choose from the following options to reflect their training and background.

• Add two skills that are normally non-exclusive, and add them as class skills.
• Add one skill that is normally non-exclusive, and add it as class skills, as well as gaining a +2 bonus to that skill.

Here is another example of making the sorcerer more special than every other core character class for no good reason. Why do sorcerers get to choose? Rogues are the most skill focused class in the game, but sorcerers get to pick two class skills that they want (or choose one with a +2 bonus)? That's kind of special treatment screams plain old favoritism.

Sorcerers do get to pick which skills they want, but just like everybody else (from a skill list). As such, the sorcerer skill list should contained "fixed" choices.

And about that skill list, yes Diplomacy is Charisma based skills, but that should not automatically nominate it for the sorcerer (just because the sorcerer is a Charisma based class). I see nothing quintessentially diplomatic about sorcerers. They are force of personality and innate power. Once they come into their own, sorcerers shouldn't have to negotiated.

Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Gather Information, Intimidate, Profession, and Sense Motive. These are all good choices. Sorcerers are not studied after all, and these skills represent experiential ways of learning.

That said, Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) can both be intuitive skills, and therefore should be added as well. Yes, even Knowledge (arcana). This is fantasy after all and the sorcerer is the only character class that starts out inherently magical. Within that context, it is entirely feasible that arcane knowledge is buried deep within them, just waiting to be released.

Moreover, Knowledge (arcana) should be a sorcerer class skill if for no other reason than to keep so many arcane-based prestige classes open to them. Options, remember?

I can even make a good argument for Use Magic Device, especially now, in light of you adding my "Spell Trigger" errata to your sorcerer. Sorcerers can't use quite so many magic items anymore, making the Charisma based Use Magic Device skill that much more attractive to sorcerers.

-----

Spells Known: A sorcerer's spell selection is limited when compared to that of a wizard. A sorcerer begins play knowing 6 0-Level spells (Cantrips), and 2 1st-Level spells of their choice. At each new experience level, the sorcerer gains 2 new spells that may be acquired form any spell level that they currently may utilize.

Why change the number of spells known? I mean, your method grants 3 more spells known to sorcerers than the printed chart (by 20th level). Is it really worth altering? I mean, let's only change what we have to. You are already granting bonues spells to the sorcerer with specialization and innate ability. I think that's plenty.

-----

Lastly, I'm not crazy about your sorcerer abilities. I feel very strongly that "special bonus abilities" (at all) utterly defeats the purpose of a devoted arcane spellcasting class. The whole idea is that their "spells" provide those abilities. In fact, that's rather the point.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Sometimes my psychic powers work, sometimes they dont.

Well, I appreciate your insight. I tried sending you an invitation to my web site via E-mail, but you have disabled it on these boards. If you are at all interested in taking a look and visiting the message boards, just click "The Waking Lands" link in my signature. I consider good feedback a valuable commodity. I hope to see you there.