Sorceror Improvement

[Technik4]

Musing about how sorcerors have little to give up with regards to choosing a prc, I think I have a solution.

At level 10 the sorceror gains 3 spells known, these spells may be from any spell list, but if they are not on the wiz/sor list then the highest level they can be is 3. These 3 spells are in addition to the usual spells a sorceror learns at level 10.

At level 20 the sorceror gains 3 spells known, these spells may be from any spell list, but if they are not on the wiz/sor list then the highest level they can be is 6. These spells are in addition to the usual spells a sorceror learns at level 20.

Wacky, Wonky, or Broke? You decide, and when you do, tell me in a reply

Technik

 

[Spatzimaus]

It's an interesting idea, but I'd spread it out more. Clumping it all up at two levels just means that when someone DOES reach class level 10, the only reason to stay in the core class would be if they intend to go all the way to 20. Since many campaigns end at level 20, that isn't much of a motivation.
So make it: at level 5 and every 3 levels after, you can pick one extra known spell from any class' spell list, but its level can't be higher than 2 less than your highest spell (minimum 0).

So, at level 5 you get a cantrip. At level 8 you get a 0-2. At level 11 you get 0-3. At 14 it's 0-5, at 17 it's from 0-6, and at 20 it's 0-7. Still six spells, still more or less the level distribution you wanted, but it's more of an ongoing reason to stay in the class.

Now, personally, I wouldn't touch this sort of thing with a 10-foot pole. Giving Sorcerers access to things like Heal is just asking for trouble, IMO. In fact, IMC we removed the Bard's healing spells and replaced them with the Resist Elements line of spells, just to keep the divine vs arcane separation. It's hard for me to judge this, though, since IMC we basically overhauled the class at its core, by combining Wizard and Sorcerer into one class. So, go with whatever works.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Or allow sorcerers to choose either an extra spell or extra spell slot at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, like wizards choose a bonus feat. In any event, I would not want sorcerers to gain access to other spell lists.

 

[Technik4]

Other Spell Access

Well keep in mind that most sorcerors dont really have all that many spells as it is, and would probably choose some more wizard-related spells (or their own custom spell). I mean even if you have a sorceror who, at 10th level, gains access to a Cure Serious Wounds (level 3 healing spell). He's flinging around 5th level spells, he could be taking arcane 5th level spells, but chose to diversify a little.

The reason I wanted it to be more than just Extra Slot every 5 levels is because you still aren't missing out on much if you join a prc. I mean, ooh you miss a couple extra slot feats, people will compare that to less than a wizard missing item creation feats. However, missing the opportunity to add 3 spells which don't necessarily have to be on your list, that could be huge.

I hope my first 2 paragraphs don't seem too contradictory. Yes in the first I made it sound like cross-access to spell is weak, as the spells are lower level than the rest of your spell, and in the second paragraph made it sound like its powerful, as in people would miss it more than 2 metamagic/item creation feats for their wizard. The reason? Well, I think it adds flavor to the class. Sorcerors become more than just alt. wizards, it defines them a little more. Sorcerors who are being role-played will look forward to those levels, and min-maxers may take a second look at the class and the potential benefits, which means more sorcerors getting played (my goal).


Spatzimus:
Your version is much less rear-loaded, but because of that, much less powerful. My version essentially allows a 10th level sorceror to pick 1 5th level spell (for going from 9th to 10th) and then potentially 3 more 5th level arcane spells, or 3rd level spells not on their list. In other words, they dont have to pick 1 cantrip, 1 2nd level spell, etc (and this is part of it that Im worrried about balance as well).

And I believe heal is a very good choice for a 20th level sorceror to have. As is harm or planar ally or spell resistance or spellstaff or reincarnate or raise dead (note that this spell would require the sorceror to "ask" a god to raise someone for him, and if the god didnt think the sorceror was particularly worthy, it would fail).

Whew. Well, I think you get my point, there are a lot of good options, but ultimately they will (should) pick spells that fit their character.

Did you have clerics get rid of domains that grant access to wiz/sor spells? Im not trying to criticize, just being curious.

Technik

 

[Stalker0]

Technik does make teh point that clerics can get access to certain sor/wiz spells through domains. And as a sorcs ability is natural talent and somewhat of a connection to the world (and in an extended view the gods themselves) I could see how a sorc might pick up a cleric spell or so. You might want to make it a feat to make it a little more of a penalty, or require that spells from alternate lists be a few levels lower than the max wiz/sor spell they could cast.

of course, on the other hand, what sorc wouldn't pick up cure light wounds. At high levels, when you have like 8 1st level spell slots and a bunch of high level ones, why not just go with teh made cure light.

 

[Technik4]

Well its designed to do 2 things:

1) Give something to sorcerors who stay sorcerors. Basically, give them a small reward for NOT taking the first prc they can jump the boat on (and a straight sorc with a straight prc will eventually get access to 3 spells not on their list, but if you try and sneak in more than 1 prc...).

2) Give some of the flavor that was being considered for sorcerors back. In the first printing of the phb it seems to say that sorcerors can learn spells from other lists. This ability was removed as it was from an earlier working of the phb, but clearly the intent was there.

Is it too powerful? I think perhaps it is AT the level they gain the ability. But sorcerors are still a spell level behind wizards every other level, and since this power is "rear-loaded" I don't think it will lead to much min/max-ing.

Technik

 

[haiiro]

This is an interesting idea.

Monte's sorcerer (from the BoEM2) does give sorcerers a reason to stay core: more skill points, a bigger skill list and more hit points. He also gives them a new spell list, re-balanced with repeated castings in mind (generally, this means the utility spells like shield and invisibility become 1 level higher).

Personally, I think sorcerers need more than that to make the class attractive (rather than just making the casting method and spell progression attractive, as is currently the case) -- but I'm not sure bonus spells known from other lists is the way to go.

 

[netnomad]

Elemental Sor.

I was just thinking about this on the way to work this morning. I’m not sure of the balance of this stuff yet but here is what I came up with:

Sorcerers don’t get a familiar at level one but Summon Familiar is now a feat.

Sorcerers can become Elemental Specialists. They can choose one Element Type (Air, Earth, Fire, Metal, Water or Wood) and those spells have a +2 DC to save and the Sor get –2 to save against the opposite Element. Metal and wood oppose each other and they are “optional”. Metal and wood is found in OA.

Sor have elemental affinity. They get a bonus spell each spell level (like a cleric) that has an elemental spell descriptor [Air, Earth, Fire, Metal, Water or Wood]. If such spells are not available (There are no Air, Earth and Water Descriptors on the SRD) then to Sor gets the spell from the appropriate cleric domain. These spells gain any bonuses/penalties from being an Element Specialist above. Damage from such clerical spells are not divine in origin. For example Flame Strike is 100% Fire damage not 50% Fire and 50% Divine.

Some alternate spell descriptors can also be used:
- Air uses the Lighting spell descriptor.
- Earth uses Force spell descriptor.
- Fire uses the Fire spell descriptor.
- Water uses the Acid descriptor.

Sor now must pick a bloodline at level 1. A bloodline is the source of a Sor power and their heritage. Each bloodline has both positive and negative effects.

Celestial –
Minor Effects: When casting spells the Sor’s eye pupil disappears and the eyes glow blue.
Befits: SR5
Penalties: Spells that target the PC’s alignment receive –5 to there save. Detect alignment has a 25% chance of a detecting the Sor as Good (Even if the sor is not good.

Dragon –
Minor Effects: When casting spells with verbal components the mouth mimics the effects of the Sor ancestor. Examples a Sor with a red or plat dragon ancestor will spew a small amount of smoke, a blue dragon Sor will have a static electricity discharge around his teeth and black dragon Sor will spilt up bits of acid when chanting.
Befits: +2 to Intimidate and+2 Save vs. Dragon Ancestors Type of Breath Weapon Damage (Fire damage for Red Dragon, Acid Damage for Black Dragon, Etc…)
Penalties:-2 Animal Handling, -2 Animal Empathy, and –2 Ride. Animals can smell the dragon heritage on the Sor’s and are naturally skittish around them.

Deluded - Has no effects because time has erased the Sor’s heritage.

Divine –
Minor Effects: All spells with somatic spell components cause the Sor body to glow slightly (not enough to provide light).
Befits: Can cast Orisons as well as Cantrips, Elemental Spells do 50% Divine Damage.
Penalties: Protection spells that effect Alignments will be doubly effective against her. Example a Protection from Chaos spell will allow the caster gets a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saves instead of the normal +2 when facing the Divine bloodline Sor.

Fey-
Minor Effects: All spells with verbal spell components have a sound of laughter faintly heard in the background.
Befits: - +2 to Bluff, +2 save vs. illusion spells.
Penalties: -2 to innuendo and –2 save vs. necromantic spells.

Ogre Magi –
Minor Effects: When casting spells that have a personal range the skin gains a greenish-yellow hue that lasts as long as the spell does.
Befits: Has double the normal healing rate per day.
Penalties: Receives –1 hit points healed with cure spells and healing items (such as potions).

Taint (Evil Outsider) –
Minor Effects: When casting spells the Sor’s eye pupil disappears and the eyes glow red.
Befits: Fire or Cold DR 5
Penalties: Spells that target the PC’s alignment receive –5 to there save. Detect alignment has a 25% chance of a detecting the Sor as Evil (Even if the sor is not evil).

So what do you think?

-Netnomad

 

[FireLance]

I would use a much simpler approach. Give the sorcerer one less spell per day of each level. Then, give the sorcerer a bonus 1st-level slot at 1st level, a bonus 2nd-level slot at 4th level, a bonus 3rd-level slot at 6th level, and so on until he gets his bonus 9th-level slot at 18th level. This way, a sorcerer gives up his extra slots by advancing in a +1 spellcaster level PrC.

The same could be done for clerics and domain slots, if you feel that clerics also give up little for advancing in +1 spellcaster level PrCs.

 

[Technik4]

Firelance:

I've heard of that approach, but it doesn't really appeal to me. You see, sorcerors who then multiclass into a prc lose too MUCH as a sor10/prc10 vs a sor20 is 10! spells behind. Sorcerors really don't get very many spells as it is, my fix improves that aspect by giving them more (at higher levels).

Your fix seems like it would just be discouraging to be a sorceror at all (no offense).


Technik