Sorcerous feat: Weave Spell

[Altamont Ravenard]

Hello all,

What do you think about this feat?

Edit: The feat takes into account the modifications suggested up to post 13.

Weave Spell
Prerequisites: Ability to spontaneously cast 2nd level arcane spells (or higher), Spell Focus (see below).
Benefit: When the feat is selected, select one school of magic for which you have Spell Focus. You can make a Weave check to cast an unknown spell of that school on your spell list, by using a spell slot of two levels higher than the spell that you attempt to Weave. This Feat may be taken multiple times; each time, a new school for which you have Spell Focus is chosen.
A Weave check is a Spellcraft check. The DC is 20 + 3*(spell level). You may not take 10 on this check. If the check fails, the spell slot is used for the day.
Weaving a spell takes the same time as casting the actual spell. It is possible to apply metamagic feats to the Weaved spell. The DC remains the same (because the spell level doesn't change, unless you use Heighten Spell, in which case the DC increases accordingly), but the spell slot level increases accordingly.

Example
An 8th level sorcerer the Weave Spell feat, the Spell Focus (Evocation) feat and the Still Spell metamagic feat. The sorcerer does not know Magic Missile, but wishes to try to Weave it. He makes the Weave check (DC 23) and uses a 3rd level spell slot to launch 4 missiles.
If the sorcerer had been tied up, he could have tried to Weave a Stilled Magic Missile by making a DC 23 Weave check and spending a 4th-level spell slot

How about this?

AR

 

[The Edge]

Im not sure. As everyone knows the sorcerers stength is its number of spells per day and the ability to cast any they know. Perfect for agressive spells, but lousey when you really want to get 'that neat spell', but know you'd only cast it ocassionaly. For a caster with a high spell craft this probably makes it too powerful.

Maybe think about makeing it cost a higher spell level (like other meta magic feats) or two? Perhaps there could be a second feat that gives acess to the next spell level.

Not sure. Worth thinking about though.

 

[BluWolf]

This essentially grants a class feature of the sorcerer to the Wizard and if you see this as something important to your game than it does not seem overly powerful.

I would probably up the prereqs a little by adding at least 1 meta-magic feat and a spell focus feat.

Just raise the bar a little.

Personally I would not use it but that is a flavor thing where I have really changed sorcerers and wizards to be enven more different.

 

[Spatzimaus]

To me, this is more of a final-level Prestige Class ability. It's very strong, and is only really useful at high levels. I'd definitely slap on a few more prerequisites if you want to keep it as a Feat, but even then I'd still say it's too good for a simple Feat.

The DC is also a bit funky. DC 20+spell level is pretty much impossible to hit at low levels, but can become near-automatic at high levels. After all, skill ranks go up twice as fast as spell levels do. I'd make it more like 20+(2*spell level); a high-level caster should never be able to cast any 8th or 9th-level spell he wants, IMO.

Also, what happens if the Sorcerer gets an item that gives +10 to Spellcraft checks? If he can never fail the check, the class gets horribly unbalanced. My suggestion is to change it to a caster level check (1d20 + caster level); that way, it's not a skill and that sort of abuse doesn't come up.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Good suggestions, thanks.

Would it be better if the feat only gave access to a particular school of magic, instead of granting access to every spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list?

AR

 

[Anax]

One thing to note is that the DC is perhaps dangerously low, although it sort of depends on the class. If the character is of reasonably high intelligence, then I could imagine someone who's aiming for this having a skill mod of 13 ranks + 4 Int mod + 3 skill focus by level 10. Which is enough to get level 1 spells *every time*. At level 20, you get 23 just from ranks, so you only need a +5 from a combination of Int mod, skill-boosting abilities, and synergy to be able to do it at every spell level every time.

Granted, it's only for bonus spell slots, not for base spell slots... But it's pretty easy to hit, and it didn't seem like the intention that this would be an "always works" sort of deal.

[Edit: Only need +4 Int at level 10 to get guaranteed 1st-level spells.]

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

a high-level caster should never be able to cast any 8th or 9th-level spell he wants, IMO..

True, but the character will need a high enough charisma to get bonus 8th or 9th level spell slots. Which, I admit, isn't hard to attain with regular D&D-levels of equipment.

Also, what happens if the Sorcerer gets an item that gives +10 to Spellcraft checks? If he can never fail the check, the class gets horribly unbalanced. My suggestion is to change it to a caster level check (1d20 + caster level); that way, it's not a skill and that sort of abuse doesn't come up.

Very good point / suggestion. Of course, the DM will be limiting what's available as magic items.

I do concede that the roll gets progressively easier as the character goes up in level. I'd really like to use the Spellcraft skill, since it's almost named specifically for this feat

A DC of 20 + (spell level * 2) might do it...

Thanks again for the input.

AR

 

[Anax]

Just don't forget to add the constraint that you can't take 10 when using this ability.

 

[Spatzimaus]

True, but the character will need a high enough charisma to get bonus 8th or 9th level spell slots. Which, I admit, isn't hard to attain with regular D&D-levels of equipment.

Yes, that is a severe limitation. But let's back it off, a bit; if you could use your 5th and 6th-level spell slots this way (and honestly, what serious Sorcerer doesn't have a CHA of 20-22 by level 20?), that's still a tremendous amount of flexibility. Even if you're only talking about a single spell slot, the ability to cast any mid-level spell on your spell list in it is HUGE. There are tons of Sorcerer spells that are just too specialized for people to waste known slots on, but this Feat would make those easily accessible.

The fact that it's only usable for the "bonus" slots doesn't actually matter that much, anyway. The vast majority of the spells you'll want to cast will be those you already know; this Feat would only be used sporadically to begin with.

Of course, the DM will be limiting what's available as magic items.

I wasn't just thinking about magic items, although that's the classic example. There are spells that add +10 or +20 to the next skill check, for instance, and spells and abilities that allow re-rolls. Since we're talking about an ability that is only used a small number of times per day, these can be used extremely well. I really think you need to get away from the whole concept of a skill check, and to me the name similarity isn't nearly enough reason to keep it this way.

Limiting it by spell school is an excellent way to bring it in line. Require Spell Focus as a prerequisite, and change it to "When the feat is selected, select one school of magic for which you have Spell Focus. You can make a Weave check to cast an unknown spell of that school on your spell list. This Feat may be taken multiple times; each time, a new school for which you have Spell Focus is chosen." It wouldn't open up the entire spell list, that way.

There are other possible ways to limit it:
> Add a 1- or 2-level penalty. That is, a 9th-level slot can be used for 7th-level spells (i.e., similar to limited wish or the various shadow magic spells; note that the shadow spells are school-limited).
> Have it cost extra slots. For instance, to Weave a level X spell, you have to lose both a level X slot and an extra slot of at least X-2.

It's not really the low-level stuff that's the problem. Since 3.0, I've played a Psion with the master dorje feat (translation: use your spell slots to cast spells out of a wand without expending charges), and carried around a bunch of almost-depleted low-level dorjes to take advantage of this. But that feat is inherently limited to low-levels, since you can't make wands out of high-level abilities. I'd aim for the same sort of thing here.

 

[helium3]

I also think the spellcraft DC is too low.

The idea of changing it to a caster level check isn't bad, but I still think it breaks down at high levels unless you boost the DC.
The idea of making the sorcerer select a specific school of magic is good, with the subsequent feat pre-requisites.
I like the idea of making the spell level of the weaved spell less than the spell slot used.

One idea I had was that the weave would burn up more than one spell slot, ie one spell slot from a Charisma bonus and another spell slot granted just by class level. This would help to limit the number of high level spells that could be cast this way.

Another is that you could require a complex check, IE a knowledge (Arcane) check and a spellcraft check or a concentration check and a spellcraft check.

Also, have you thought about how this feat would affect other spontaneous spell casting classes? It seems to me that this feat would seriously boost Bards, since it would effectively give them access to blasting spells, which they generally aren't supposed to have. Not that boosting bards wouldn't be a bad thing, imo.