Soulknife mindblade question

[Moonstone Spider]

If this is the route you are taking with your Soulkife, I would hope he would have Deep Impact by level 17, which turns his melee attack into a touch attack. Suddenly he has the same chance to hit as the Wizard with his ranged touch spell. Better actually, since he has a higher BAB, Weapon Focus (mindblade) for free, and would have the Str (or Dex if throwing the mindblade) that a Wizard wouldn't normally have.

Deep Impact is nice, but requires two feats and Soulknives are feat starved (The Wizard's spell needs none), and the Soulknife has to have his psionic focus to use it, which means he has to spend a full-round action, hope he gets the DC of 20, and will draw an AoO to use his special level 17 ability, where the magicians level 3/4 ability doesn't require those things. If you go psionic meditiation to avoid the worst of those penalties, now you're down almost half the feats you'll ever get, just to match a wizard who's taken no feats and uses one of his lowest-level spells, and can blast away every turn.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Weee! A Chain Shirt +5 that costs over 9x as much as the Fighter's Full Plate +1, for the same AC bonus! Good thing the Soulknife has all that gold from not having to upgrade weapons...

Not nearly as broken as you might suggest. You'll notice that no armor and max DEX combination is more than a +1 above any other armor and max DEX combination. Mithral is really only a penalty against the heavier armors because it gives the same benefit to both but costs much more for the heavier armors. If you are limited to light armor the assumption is that your DEX is going to be fairly decent. If it's not, you might be in the wrong class.

Thus, that Chain Shirt +5 plus DEX modifier means you could have an AC modifier from armor and DEX of +13.

That Full Plate +1 plus maximum DEX modifier means you could have an AC modifier from armor and DEX of +10.

Seems like an advantage goes to Chain Shirt guy in that scenario ... which it should because the armor is better! In truth, the full plate wearer of an equal magical enhancement only gets an advantage of +1 when you put DEX into the mix where it rightfully belongs.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Not nearly as broken as you might suggest. You'll notice that no armor and max DEX combination is more than a +1 above any other armor and max DEX combination. Mithral is really only a penalty against the heavier armors because it gives the same benefit to both but costs much more for the heavier armors. If you are limited to light armor the assumption is that your DEX is going to be fairly decent. If it's not, you might be in the wrong class.

Thus, that Chain Shirt +5 plus DEX modifier means you could have an AC modifier from armor and DEX of +13.

That Full Plate +1 plus maximum DEX modifier means you could have an AC modifier from armor and DEX of +10.

Seems like an advantage goes to Chain Shirt guy in that scenario ... which it should because the armor is better! In truth, the full plate wearer of an equal magical enhancement only gets an advantage of +1 when you put DEX into the mix where it rightfully belongs.

This is somewhat fallacious. First you're comparing +5 armor to +1 armor which is just silly, the Soulknife's "free" weapon is hardly enough savings to pay for that kind of imbalance in enhancement level. Second, it's nearly impossible for most characters to build up their DEX to that level without sacrificing str and con, which is painful for a straight melee build like the Soulknife. And since a Soulknife can only form one mindblade per turn until the really high levels, he can't use his dex to become a competent throwing build because he can't make full attacks.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Moonstone, please note that my comparison from +1 armor to +5 armor is in reference to an earlier post. It was not my example, it was the example given by an earlier poster: Enforcer. My post was simply responding to their original comparison of +1 to +5 armor. And part of my reply includes the idea that I think the comparison of +1 armor to +5 armor is not really a good one to base any premise on.

Regarding the max DEX comments, you are certainly welcome to your opinion. But with all the magical boosting items and their relatively inexpensive cost with regard to benefits a character should be able to arrive at the max DEX allowed by any give armor. The max DEX of a chain shirt is only +4. All a character needs for that is a DEX of 14 and a magical item that boosts DEX by +4. That shouldn't stretch the imagination any or break anyone's bank. It shouldn't also cut into CON or STR too harshly.

My original point was to Enforcer that the argument saying a Chain Shirt +5 on a Soulknife is equivilant to a fighter's full plate +1 is not a logical one. A fighter should be able to make the max DEX allowed at +1, received the +8 from the armor, and receive any magical bonus. Best case scenario (without paying for Mithril) is a +14 from DEX and armor. A Soulknife shouldn't have much trouble making the +4 max DEX, the +4 for the chain shirt, and the magical bonus. So, best case scenario is that they get a +13 (without paying for Mithril). Between a +13 and a +14 I just don't see a large advantage.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

which is painful for a straight melee build like the Soulknife.

it's nearly impossible for most characters to build up their DEX to that level without sacrificing str and con,

That would depend on what method of stat generation you're using.

And since a Soulknife can only form one mindblade per turn until the really high levels, he can't use his dex to become a competent throwing build because he can't make full attacks.

That's simply wrong- there's nothing to prevent the Soulknife from picking up a material weapon along the way and have a perfectly competent thower, then subbing in the mindblade when he can do so.

 

[Enforcer]

That's simply wrong- there's nothing to prevent the Soulknife from picking up a material weapon along the way and have a perfectly competent thower, then subbing in the mindblade when he can do so.

Subbing in the mind blade at 17th? Why not just pick another class where you can throw multiple weapons starting at level 6 or 8. And actually the Soulbow PrC is a far better choice (Complete Psionic).

As for Nonlethal Force's Dex bonus arguments, I disagree that a +4 Dex-boosting item won't break anyone's bank. It costs 16,000gp for gloves of dexterity +4. If you're going by the wealth per level table int he DMG, you shouldn't afford one until what? 7th level? And that would leave you only 3,000gp for all the other defensive items people think the Soulknife has so much access to because they don't buy their weapon.

That 3,000 is enough for mithral chain shirt +1, however, bringing total AC from Dex and armor to +9, at the mere cost of 18,000gp, whereas the Fighter with the same Dex score (14) still wins with his bargain-basement 2,650gp full plate +1 and a total AC bonus of +10 (+9 armor, +1 Dex as limited by armor). I guess if it were point buy the Fighter could use the 2 extra points from Dex for something else... Oh, and if 7th level like the Soulknife, the Fighter still has 15,350gp left for his weapon, a +2 enhancement bonus on it (equal to the 7th level Soulknife's), with 7,000gp left over for a heavy shield +2 and a ring of protection +1 for another +5 to AC.

And sure, if you roll awesome stats, any weak character class will look better. But assuming you can't (point-buy or the low chance you're gonna roll awesome Str, Dex, and Con), the Soulknife really has to choose between not getting hit and doing the only thing he can do (hit stuff for damage) well.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

My original point was to Enforcer that the argument saying a Chain Shirt +5 on a Soulknife is equivilant to a fighter's full plate +1 is not a logical one. A fighter should be able to make the max DEX allowed at +1, received the +8 from the armor, and receive any magical bonus. Best case scenario (without paying for Mithril) is a +14 from DEX and armor. A Soulknife shouldn't have much trouble making the +4 max DEX, the +4 for the chain shirt, and the magical bonus. So, best case scenario is that they get a +13 (without paying for Mithril). Between a +13 and a +14 I just don't see a large advantage.

But why are you still comparing Chain Shirt +5 to Full Plate +1?

The Fighter wears his Fullplate and has Dex 12. He has an AC of 19 Before Applying Magic. The Soulknife, limited to a chain shirt, has AC 15 unless he's given more Dex for no apparent reason. Let's assume this is around level 4-5 where +1 armor starts showing up, so they both get +1 Armors. The Fighter gets +1 Plate and the Soulknife gets a +1 Chain Shirt. The Soulknife's "free" weapon is also +1 while the fighter has to divert resources to his +1 Shortsword, so the Soulknife has 2000GP more resources to spend on defense. The Fullplate also costs 1400 GP more than the Chain Shirt so the Soulknife has a total of 3400 Extra GP to spend. If he puts everything into defense he can afford the extra 3000 to buy a +2 Chain Shirt and have 400 left over for. . . well you can't buy any more defense at that price so it won't matter.

Total AC:
Fighter: 20
Soulknife: 17

That would depend on what method of stat generation you're using.

Unless you're using Cheating Dice or simply infinite resources, putting resources into Dex WILL limit your ability to put resources into Str and Con. You simply can't put the points (at chargen) or money (Items of +ability Score) there if they're being used elsewhere instead.

That's simply wrong- there's nothing to prevent the Soulknife from picking up a material weapon along the way and have a perfectly competent thower, then subbing in the mindblade when he can do so.

Except that a lot of the argument so far has been that the Soulknife doesn't have to buy weapons, allowing the soulknife to beef up on armor. Now you're not only got the Soulknife suffering from MAD to support melee and ranged combat, you've also got the Soulknife having to buy full equipment so he won't even get the +1 to his Armor his extra resources would otherwise afford.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Subbing in the mind blade at 17th? Why not just pick another class where you can throw multiple weapons starting at level 6 or 8. And actually the Soulbow PrC is a far better choice (Complete Psionic).

As of Dragon #341, there is a Feat that lets the shape mindblade power form a number of daggers for throwing. Lots of them.

Unless you're using Cheating Dice or simply infinite resources, putting resources into Dex WILL limit your ability to put resources into Str and Con.

Sure, any PC must make the choice of which stats to pump every 4 levels, but there are lots of ways to pump stats.

First, you could get lucky initially and just roll well. The likelyhood of that depends upon what method the DM prefers...and there are just as many of those as there are point-buy systems.

Second, there are all kinds of stat-boosting items that, since the Soulknife isn't buying weapons, are probably on his shopping list.

Except that a lot of the argument so far has been that the Soulknife doesn't have to buy weapons, allowing the soulknife to beef up on armor.

I didn't say anything about buying. The Soulknife's player is just as able as any other to say "I want that item out of the treasure."

But why are you still comparing Chain Shirt +5 to Full Plate +1?

The Fighter wears his Fullplate and has Dex 12. He has an AC of 19 Before Applying Magic. The Soulknife, limited to a chain shirt, has AC 15 unless he's given more Dex for no apparent reason.

The reason is plainly apparent to me, at least.

Assuming rational players, a PC who is wearing heavy armor will not have a high dex (unless he's also the party archer/sharpshooter). The PC wearing the light armor will be a higher dex PC 9 times out of 10.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

As of Dragon #341, there is a Feat that lets the shape mindblade power form a number of daggers for throwing. Lots of them.

Two problems, most players don't have Dragon and very few games allow it. I personally have never been in a game that allows Dragon stuff although my experience is limited. Still it's nice to see something. Second problem: Soulknives are feat-starved compared to most other martial classes. A feat cost that's not even a blip to a fighter or minor to a Ranger can be crippling to a Soulknife.

Also what are the prereqs and costs to this feat? How does it work? Can the Soulknife get it at level 1?

Sure, any PC must make the choice of which stats to pump every 4 levels, but there are lots of ways to pump stats.

First, you could get lucky initially and just roll well. The likelyhood of that depends upon what method the DM prefers...and there are just as many of those as there are point-buy systems.

So. . . you're basing a part of your argument on "Soulknives are just as good as fighters if they roll better stats than the fighter?" Yeah, that's convincing.

Second, there are all kinds of stat-boosting items that, since the Soulknife isn't buying weapons, are probably on his shopping list.

And everybody else's.

I didn't say anything about buying. The Soulknife's player is just as able as any other to say "I want that item out of the treasure."

Yet even when you're picking out treasures, the rules on how many GP that treasure is worth are applied so it is a form of buying. More importantly, you are responding to my comment that your idea requires the Soulknife to take weapons from the treasure. Yet your argument one quote above this one is that the Soulknife gets better items because he isn't Buying weapons (And it's amusing that you claim to not say anything about buying when you used the term yourself one sentence earlier.) As with the Dex vs. Str argument, you're trying to have it both ways, arguing that the Soulknife gets better treasure because he doesn't take weapons, then immediately turning around and saying he can just take a weapon anytime he wants.

The reason is plainly apparent to me, at least.

Assuming rational players, a PC who is wearing heavy armor will not have a high dex (unless he's also the party archer/sharpshooter). The PC wearing the light armor will be a higher dex PC 9 times out of 10.

I asked why you were giving a +5 enhancement bonus vs. a +1 enhancement bonus, not the Dex difference. And even on the Dex front you have yet to show how the Soulknife is going to have this high dex without sacrificing his str or con aside from "Maybe he'll get a really lucky roll for initial ability scores."

 

[RigaMortus2]

Deep Impact is nice, but requires two feats and Soulknives are feat starved (The Wizard's spell needs none), and the Soulknife has to have his psionic focus to use it, which means he has to spend a full-round action, hope he gets the DC of 20, and will draw an AoO to use his special level 17 ability, where the magicians level 3/4 ability doesn't require those things. If you go psionic meditiation to avoid the worst of those penalties, now you're down almost half the feats you'll ever get, just to match a wizard who's taken no feats and uses one of his lowest-level spells, and can blast away every turn.

The Soulknife can also do this all day long. Wizards, on the other hand, will eventually run out of spells. Like I said, if you are going to build a Soulknife that focuses on the Knife to the Soul, you'll be picking specific feats that help you do just that. You'll have plenty of feats by level 13 to maximize this ability. Again, if that is what you choose to do.