Soulknife mindblade question

[Moonstone Spider]

The Soulknife can also do this all day long. Wizards, on the other hand, will eventually run out of spells. Like I said, if you are going to build a Soulknife that focuses on the Knife to the Soul, you'll be picking specific feats that help you do just that. You'll have plenty of feats by level 13 to maximize this ability. Again, if that is what you choose to do.

At level 17+ the Wizard's supply of level 2 spells is usually not a major limiting factor. And the Warlock has well established that "at will" is not overpowering in and of itself in comparison to magicians with limited spells per day but much vaster versatility. Perhaps if your game routinely has 8 encounters before the PCs get to rest then it's an issue, but in combat turns and actions are more valuable than abilities per day, particularly if you're following the normal guidelines of 4 encounters or so a day.

Speaking of which, you're also missing that the Soulknife has to spend a full round gaining psionic focus, then another move action to charge up his knife to the soul (Drawing at least 1 and maybe 2 AoOs depending on the GM's ruling) before he can use his Knife to the Soul to actually do this wonderful damage (Possibly having to throw his mindblade depending on the circumstances). The Wizard can take down animals twice as fast and as long as he has his concentration skill up he won't draw AoOs to do it.

 

[irdeggman]

At level 17+ the Wizard's supply of level 2 spells is usually not a major limiting factor. And the Warlock has well established that "at will" is not overpowering in and of itself in comparison to magicians with limited spells per day but much vaster versatility. Perhaps if your game routinely has 8 encounters before the PCs get to rest then it's an issue, but in combat turns and actions are more valuable than abilities per day, particularly if you're following the normal guidelines of 4 encounters or so a day.

Speaking of which, you're also missing that the Soulknife has to spend a full round gaining psionic focus, then another move action to charge up his knife to the soul (Drawing at least 1 and maybe 2 AoOs depending on the GM's ruling) before he can use his Knife to the Soul to actually do this wonderful damage (Possibly having to throw his mindblade depending on the circumstances). The Wizard can take down animals twice as fast and as long as he has his concentration skill up he won't draw AoOs to do it.

Are we talking about a level character here?

Since it is a level 17+ the "logical player" would choose to have Psionic Meditation as his 6th level feat. This allows regaining focus as a move action instead of a full round one. So he could execute a psychic strike every other round instead of every 3rd one.

There are several really good soulknife feats in Complete Psionic.

Mind Strike (which allows an extra die of psychic strike damage) - try using this one with the knife to the soul and quickly devestate a character (charisma is a great stat to reduce, since most non-spontaneous caster keep it as their "dump stat"). So a 17th level soulknife with:

Psionic Meditation (6th level)
Mind Strike (3rd level)
Mind Strike, Swift (9th level)

Can effectively deal 5 points of ability damage in the first round.
Can deal another 5 points in the second round (using Mind Strike, swift). (requires move action to refocus) {1 AoO}
Refocus and recharge in the 3rd round (or refocus and move) {if move then no AoO, otherwise 1 AoO}
Deal another 5 points of ability damage in the 4th round


And each hit is with a +4 weapon with +3 worth of enhancements (wounding and defending are real good - -1 Con per hit and can transfer +4 to AC as a free action - works while refocusing too, since the soulknife isn't attacking)


Soulknives have roughly the same hit points as a fighter (and I thing it has been proven they will have real close to the same AC, one way or another). They have a worse BAB but can do a lot of "special" types of damage.

 

[Sithobi1]

So the soulknife also needs to have 13 wis, which the Fighter doesn't. Again, the Soulknife has to have better stats than the Fighter to be equal to one?

 

[Nonlethal Force]

But why are you still comparing Chain Shirt +5 to Full Plate +1?

Sorry, I wasn't aware that I was. Not to be snippy, but more so that the relevent text is in the same post, here's the quote from my earlier post:

My original point was to Enforcer that the argument saying a Chain Shirt +5 on a Soulknife is equivilant to a fighter's full plate +1 is not a logical one. A fighter should be able to make the max DEX allowed at +1, received the +8 from the armor, and receive any magical bonus. Best case scenario (without paying for Mithril) is a +14 from DEX and armor. A Soulknife shouldn't have much trouble making the +4 max DEX, the +4 for the chain shirt, and the magical bonus. So, best case scenario is that they get a +13 (without paying for Mithril). Between a +13 and a +14 I just don't see a large advantage.

In the paragraph I talk about the fighter's DEX bonus at +1 for the full plate. I talk about the +8 armor bonus from the full plate. That makes a total of +9. Best case scenario (non-epic) is a +5 magical bonus, making it +14. I don't say anything in there about full plate armor +1.

In the paragraph I also talk about the soulknife's DEX bonus at +4, which I still think most soulknives can make without cutting into their funds - especially as the game level goes up. Certainly not at first level, of course. Then I talk about the armor bonus from a chain shirt at +4. Then I talk about the best case scenario of magical bonus at +5, making the total a +13. Thus ... if you look at my numbers you can see that I'm comparing full plate +5 and chain shirt +5!

So the soulknife also needs to have 13 wis, which the Fighter doesn't. Again, the Soulknife has to have better stats than the Fighter to be equal to one?

True. But then again this can be said about a bunch of classes. You can't play an effective paladin on most fighter stats. You can't play a ranger on some fighter rolls, and those that you can the ranger isn't as optimized as the fighter can be. You can't really even play a barbarian on some rolls that make a fighter playable.

Not all classes are comparable to the fighter. Not to mention that melee combat is the fighter's primary domain. Assuming that any character can come in and do an equitable job as a fighter in the fighting domain means that they wll need help from something. A cleric can do as good or better job fighting than a fighter, but they'll need to rely on their spells (and thus WIS) to accomplish it. A Favored Soul can also accomplish the same success as a fighter in melee but they need to depend upon their spells (CHA) to do it. The Barbarian needs to respect DEX on account of their armor llimitations. The ranger needs to respect DEX and possibly WIS if they want to use their access to spells effectively. The paladin needs to respect both WIS and CHA to truly be effective as the fighter.

My point is that saying the Soulknife has to respect STR, DEX, and CON really puts them in the same boat as the barbarian, cleric, Favored SOul, Ranger, and not as limited as the paladin. Not all classes are equal. I okay with that. If you want to play the most effective melee combatant that you can, play a fighter!

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Sorry, I wasn't aware that I was. Not to be snippy, but more so that the relevent text is in the same post, here's the quote from my earlier post:



In the paragraph I talk about the fighter's DEX bonus at +1 for the full plate. I talk about the +8 armor bonus from the full plate. That makes a total of +9. Best case scenario (non-epic) is a +5 magical bonus, making it +14. I don't say anything in there about full plate armor +1.

In the paragraph I also talk about the soulknife's DEX bonus at +4, which I still think most soulknives can make without cutting into their funds - especially as the game level goes up. Certainly not at first level, of course. Then I talk about the armor bonus from a chain shirt at +4. Then I talk about the best case scenario of magical bonus at +5, making the total a +13. Thus ... if you look at my numbers you can see that I'm comparing full plate +5 and chain shirt +5!



True. But then again this can be said about a bunch of classes. You can't play an effective paladin on most fighter stats. You can't play a ranger on some fighter rolls, and those that you can the ranger isn't as optimized as the fighter can be. You can't really even play a barbarian on some rolls that make a fighter playable.

Not all classes are comparable to the fighter. Not to mention that melee combat is the fighter's primary domain. Assuming that any character can come in and do an equitable job as a fighter in the fighting domain means that they wll need help from something. A cleric can do as good or better job fighting than a fighter, but they'll need to rely on their spells (and thus WIS) to accomplish it. A Favored Soul can also accomplish the same success as a fighter in melee but they need to depend upon their spells (CHA) to do it. The Barbarian needs to respect DEX on account of their armor llimitations. The ranger needs to respect DEX and possibly WIS if they want to use their access to spells effectively. The paladin needs to respect both WIS and CHA to truly be effective as the fighter.

My point is that saying the Soulknife has to respect STR, DEX, and CON really puts them in the same boat as the barbarian, cleric, Favored SOul, Ranger, and not as limited as the paladin. Not all classes are equal. I okay with that. If you want to play the most effective melee combatant that you can, play a fighter!

Okay, I misunderstood your math. Still you're continuing to just hand the Soulknife free enhancements to his Dex. This, in my mind, is concrete proof that the Soulknife is weaker.

What you're missing about the MAD of these other classes is that they get cool class abilities for having those extra dependencies. A Paladin with Cha 10 is just as good as a fighter with Cha 10 at Cha jobs like diplomacy and intimidation and such that are normal functions of Cha. When the Paladin ups his Charisma he not only gains the normal bonuses of Charisma he gains special powers, like a big boost to his saves, the ability to heal with a touch, and a more powerful smite. The Wisdom of the Ranger doesn't just make him observant and boost his will save, it gives him magic spells including the all-important healing spells. In short, classes with MAD can do things with ability scores that other classes cannot. A fighter cannot use his Cha to improve his saves or his wisdom to cast spells, so he doesn't need them.

The Soulknife's extra Dex you're giving him does not give him any cool new powers. A soulknife's extra free dex points you insist he's going to gain for free will not give him spells or grant the soulknife healing or let him fly or anything of the sort. It gives him only the same bog-standard AC, Initiative, and Ref save that it gives the fighter. The fighter can take dex or leave it depending on his build, because he also has access to the good armor. The soulknife is forced to take dex because his armor sucks. Hence he is the weaker than other MAD classes and the fighter as a result because he's forced to take the ability score (You've shown this by insisting on more Dex at every turn to bolster your own argument), but does not gain the supernatural and exceptional powers MAD normally confers.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Also what are the prereqs and costs to this feat? How does it work? Can the Soulknife get it at level 1?

It requires that the Soulknife be able to shape his mindblade plus a couple of other req's- I believe all are satisfyable fairly early, but not at 1st level.

So. . . you're basing a part of your argument on "Soulknives are just as good as fighters if they roll better stats than the fighter?" Yeah, that's convincing.

I never said that. I'm just stating that your implication that a Soulknife couldn't have 3 (or more) good stats is incorrect.

In fact, my position, stated above, was:

Is the class perfect? No.

But its not as unplayable as you're implying- I'd gladly play one today if I were allowed to.

I'm not a slave to game balance. IMHO, the class is good enough to play as is. Could it be improved? Absolutely- any class could.

I wouldn't want to play one if my concept was a front line fighter. However, a "mage-slayer" or "assassin" type build has proven to be quite effective with that class.

In fact, I don't consider the Soulknife to be a front-line fighter at all. I lump them in with classes like Spellthieves, Ninjas, Scouts, etc.- light armored PCs better suited to ambush tactics than any other type of melee. Even the Monk, especially with their similar MSD problem, is closer to the Soulknife than is the fighter.

Yet even when you're picking out treasures, the rules on how many GP that treasure is worth are applied so it is a form of buying.

What rule?

In our campaigns, treasure is not divided by value, its divided by PC desires and party perception of who would get more utility out of it...again, without concern for balance. We're currently going through RttToEE- my PC got a Cloak of Arachnida at one point. However, we've gotten more utility out of it in the hands of others at various times, so it is more of a party treasure than a PC treasure.

Buying weapons (And it's amusing that you claim to not say anything about buying when you used the term yourself one sentence earlier.)

Quote me.

All I said was "pick up" as in obtain from treasure.

Furthermore, an effective throwing build does not have magical weapons as a prereq- magic weapons just make the build better.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Honestly, I think there are a ton of "game assumptions" that are muddying the issue. For example, in most of the games I play in the DM/PC treasure convention is that magical shops are not as prevalent as wal-mart, but magical items out of the DMG are not that hard to purchase provided you've got the funds. That makes party treasure dividing less significant. That's a game style difference, not a problem with the soulknife class.

Also, there are many differing opinions about balance. I don't feel like all classes need to be perfectly balanced in every way. Fighters are the best melee people out there, hands down. Looking at the narrow aspect of melee combat there is no class that competes with the versatility of the fighter class. But I'm also okay with that. For me, playing a character that needs to make sure they boost their DEX (if they don't want to dip into their STR and CON) is acceptable so long as the flavor and other mechanics are cool. In my eyes, that's also true. Sure, a soulknife has to make sure their DEX is higher than a fighter's DEX. Okay ... there is no arguing that. But I'm okay with that. No big deal.

A soulknife's extra free dex points you insist he's going to gain for free will not give him spells or grant the soulknife healing or let him fly or anything of the sort.
...
You've shown this by insisting on more Dex at every turn to bolster your own argument

I never said that the DEX enhancements come for free. I've also never changed my position at all in regard to the DEX boost needed! What I have said is this:

But with all the magical boosting items and their relatively inexpensive cost with regard to benefits a character should be able to arrive at the max DEX allowed by any give armor. The max DEX of a chain shirt is only +4. All a character needs for that is a DEX of 14 and a magical item that boosts DEX by +4. That shouldn't stretch the imagination any or break anyone's bank. It shouldn't also cut into CON or STR too harshly.

I fully admit that throughout my whole posting in this thread I have assumed a Soulknife with DEX 14 and a Gloves of Dexterity +4 to get the full armor bonus. I've also been assuming magical enhancement of +5. If you're going to be able to afford armor enhancement of +5 you should be able to afford 16,000 for a gloves of dexterity +4. I don't see anything wrong with that assertion.

If you want to look at lower levels, though, of course it isn't going to be perfectly balanced. But here is a rough comparison:

At 4th level, the Mindblade gets a free +1 weapon enhancement worth 2,000 gold. Not enough to buy any DEX boost yet. So the Soulknife with DEX 14 is behind the full plate fighter's unenhanced armor bonus by 3. But that's assuming they've spent a large portion of their money on costly full plate. Many may have, but many may still be using breastplate, too. I've seen more than one fighter stay in breastplate past level 4. It may not be optimized, but the characters are not wealthy yet, either!

At 6th level the Soulknife gets an enhancement to their weapon. Technically, this makes the wepon a +2 weapon, worth 8,000 gold. That's enough to buiy a gloves of DEX +2 and have 4,000 in change left over. So their unenhanced armor comparison is now behind by 2, assuming the fighter has gone to full plate which by this point they may well have.

At 8th level the Soulknife gets their +2 mindblade. However, this is actually a +3 mindblade worth 18,000 gold because of the enhancement gained at level 6. That's more than enough to buy those gloves of DEX +2. At this point, their AC should only be 1 point behind the fighter in full plate.

I think that's a fair comparison, personally. By 8th level and a starting DEX of 14 the Soulknife need not raise their DEX again and only be 1 point behind the fighter in full plate AC without spending any extra money that the fighter wouldn't spend on a weapon in the first place.

Is it perfectly balanced? No. But it is close enough for me! After all, the fighter is the quintessential melee expert. I'd expect it to be better and have a slight advantage. Not a huge one, but the Soulknife/fighter comparison as I've laid out is not a huge difference in my opinion.

 

[irdeggman]

So the soulknife also needs to have 13 wis, which the Fighter doesn't. Again, the Soulknife has to have better stats than the Fighter to be equal to one?

Never said that.

You will notice that I didn't mention actual damage. A fighter will always, always deal more straight up melee damage than a straight class soulknife.

So the Soulknife swaps some Str for Wis. There are too many psionic feats with Wis prerequisites to ignore a 13 Wis (not really too hard to get too by 17th level).

A soulknife is a specialist and not a front line combatant. People seem to want to beleive they are front liners (there was a long, long thread on that one having to do with the lack of good BAB progression).

A soulknife can take down creatures quicker than a fighter can under the right conditions. Liek something with a lot of hit points but a low Char, Int or Wis. That is what a soulknife is best at. Plus all of those ability damage (and special enhancements) apply when throwing the mindblade so they can be done at short range (thus avoiding AoO).

 

[irdeggman]

Let's see a soulknife can "best" benefit from what stats?

IMO

Dex (short sword is a "light weapon")
Wis (too many psionic feats that really require a 13)
Con (well every class needs this one don't they?)
Str (still handy for melee)

Fighters "best" benefit from (assume melee build, archers are completely different):

Str
Con (again everyone needs this one)
Dex (more for initiative, since hevaier armors are limited by max Dex bonus)


Now fighters also benefit pretty well from Wis and Dex for saving throws since they only have 1 good save (Fort) while soulknives have 2 (reflex and Wil).

IMO a soulknife can benefit more from 2 weapon fighting than from using a 2 handed weapon (like a bastard sword). The latter will do more damage but the former will increase the "special damage" done.

At 17the level a soulknife can have 2 +3 short swords, each with +3 worth of enhancements (total of +6 bonus per sword). If my calculations are correct that is 72,000 gp worth of equipment each for a total of 144,ooo gp. Or he can have a single weapon worth 98,000 gp). A fighter needs to buy (or find) the equivalent in weapons. Also the soulknife can change the enhancements A soulknife can change those enhancements with 8 hours of concentration to build a "different" weapon, while a fighter needs to have one for each set of combinations.

Of course the fighter can get spells put on his weapons to accomplish some of those enhancements, but then again so can the soulknife.

IMO neither class is "better", like all of the classes each is "better" at certain times and has different "strengths" and "weaknesses". That is why the typical "party" ahs a combinations of classes and not 4 fighters or 4 of the same class.