SoW: TPK last night

[Stumblewyk]

Disclaimer: I'm not complaining about the TPK, the loss of my character, or the writing/balance of the adventure we were running. I'm more curious about what we could have done to avoid the outcome we got.

So, lost my first 4e character last night as part of a TPK in the Scales of War adventure path. I don't know what, if anything, would have saved our party based on the make-up of the party, and the nature of the encounter(s) that did us in, but I was curious if anyone else had similar experiences with the portion of the adventure path we were on.

First off, party make-up (level 12):

• Human Storm Warden/Storm Sentinel
• Warforged Tactical Warlord/Longarm Marshall
• Eladrin Illusionist Wizard/Wizard of the Spiral Tower
• Elven Archery Ranger/Battlefield Archer
• Halfling Trickster Rogue/Halfling Quickblade

Module: Beyond the Mottled Tower

[sblock]We've pretty much handled everything thrown at us up until this point with relative ease. We've had PCs drop unconscious, get close to failing that dreaded 3rd Death Saving Throw, etc., but we've always managed to pull through, and we've never lost a PC.

Last night was different. We were attempting to follow Sarshan (kind of an interplanar Shadar-Kai arms dealer) to the top of his tower in the Elemental Chaos, and escape the rising magma/Blood Chaos mixture that the tower was sinking down into towards the very end of the module in question.

For those unfamiliar with the adventure, you step through a portal into the Elemental Chaos, not far from the City of Brass, in a roiling magma sea atop floating "earthbergs". You then fight your way to shore, hopping for shifting berg to berg, then you enter an obsidian tower and must fight your way to the top level to finally confront Sarshan who has been making your life very difficult for quite a while.

Well, our party cruised through the "earthberg" encounter fairly unscathed. We entered the tower, and really struggled with the very next rising magma/get to the escape portal/kill off the baddies waiting for you encounter. By the time this encounter was over, I (the Warlord) and our Wizard were each down to 2 Healing Surges. Many of us had used up daily item powers, and our Warden was reduced to 4 Surges.

The next encounter (the one with the trapped crushing walls and ceiling) wasn't too awful. The large flesh golem was able to rampage on us twice, which hurt, but we were able to take turns delaying the trapped walls and never got crushed. However, by the end of this encounter (and the rest after it), the Warden was down to 3 Surges, and the Wizard and myself were at 0. The Ranger was out of Daily powers, and we KNEW we were in trouble if we couldn't get an extended rest.

It turns out we couldn't get an extended rest. The DM allowed us to disabled the trapped wall room permanently, and we got in a short rest. With our loins girded, we left the chamber and used the portal to reach the roof to confront Sarshan.

Surprisingly, as depleted as our resources were, we managed to kill off everyone on the roof (4 minions, 6 regulars if memory serves correctly) except for Sarshan. Unfortunately, Sarshan's "I spit on you, you gradually turn into acidy goo" power reduced our Rogue who still had 2 Daily's unspent into a pile of slime after 2 failed saves immediately after every other enemy was dropped and Sarshan stepped out of the protective magic shell he was hiding in.

Our ranger followed him into the gooey afterlife shortly after. Down to 3 characters, and nearly ENTIRELY spent, I blew my last real trick, and ran up to Sarshan, and attempted an Opening Shove. I missed. I Action Pointed, and hit with Driving Spear. Thanks to my Tactician's Armor I could push him 5 squares. If Opening Shove had hit, the combination of the two would have moved him 6 squares, 2 beyond the edge of the top of the tower, and ended this whole issue. As it was, it only moved him 5. He made his save at the edge, and it was over except for the paperwork at that point.

Our Warden as surgeless, at 28 hit points. I was surgeless, and at 23 hit points. The Wizard was surgeless, and at 44 hit points. We conceded the TPK when the DM told us Sarshan was still north of 400 hit points.

The adventure specified you could not take an extended rest once you arrived in the Elemental Chaos. We did the rough math, and figured we'd gone 3 encounters before confronting Sarshan on the roof, and his encounter was really 2-in-1, since that 4th encounter was kind of in phases (Phase 1, fight 8 mooks, Phase 2, fight Sarshan and 2 mooks, and Sarshan was a level 12 solo).

So...5 quite difficult encounters, no extended rests. We had a pretty pervasive mood of fatalism once we realized how depleted we were following the entry to the obsidian tower. We kind of figured the TPK was coming, but that doesn't mean we didn't want to avoid it.[/sblock]

So...with all that being said...how could things have gone differently? I wonder if the only chance we really would have had is if the DM would have fudged things and given us an extended rest somewhere in there, but meh. It happened.

 

[Jack99]

First of all, the combats before the final battle are just n+0 fights, so on paper, it doesn't sound so bad. So going by the numbers, this should definitely have been doable.

With that said, the adventure says the following:

two-Stage fight
This high-level encounter is designed to push the PCs to the limit, and Sarshan’s last stand promises to be a memorable fight. However, if the PCs are down on healing surges and daily powers (and especially if they have not yet attained 12th level), consider splitting this encounter into two separate combats, with the second beginning only after the force sphere is successfully brought down. In this optional encounter format, Sarshan and his shadar-kai guards ignore the PCs at first, trusting the githyanki to deal with the party while Sarshan activates his escape portal. When the force sphere is brought down, all the shadar-kai join in the fray.

Sounds like your DM either forgot, didn't care, or something else.

On a side note, Sarshan would have gotten a save either way. It doesn't matter if you push him 1, 2 or 8 squares over the edge. Else push powers would be way too powerful.

As for what you could have done? Brought a cleric instead of a pseudo-healer, and you might have had enough surges left to fight it out. Although your party should have managed just fine - on paper at least, it doesn't seem like a string of excessively hardcore encounters.

 

[Stumblewyk]

On a side note, Sarshan would have gotten a save either way. It doesn't matter if you push him 1, 2 or 8 squares over the edge. Else push powers would be way too powerful.

Movement powers/distances/what-have-you tend to work a bit wonky in this game. We've been ruling that forced movement that goes more than one square beyond the edge of a fall doesn't grant a save.

As for what you could have done? Brought a cleric instead of a pseudo-healer, and you might have had enough surges left to fight it out. Although your party should have managed just fine - on paper at least, it doesn't seem like a string of excessively hardcore encounters.

It was really surprising how difficult this string proved to be for our group - we really have pretty much cruised through just about everything before this point. We were a little worried in one of the prior encounters in this module with the

Spoiler

2 green dragons

, but we ended up finishing that encounter without a single party member bloodied, for instance. For a long time, our DM complained that he couldn't even drop someone unconscious. And then this stretch totally wiped the floor with us.

As for the Warlord not being enough of a healer...I've never felt like I couldn't do enough healing, and the party's never felt like they were lacking in the heal support. =/

 

[Jack99]

Movement powers/distances/what-have-you tend to work a bit wonky in this game. We've been ruling that forced movement that goes more than one square beyond the edge of a fall doesn't grant a save.

Who am I to argue against a house-rule. Was just pointing out that its not RAW

It was really surprising how difficult this string proved to be for our group - we really have pretty much cruised through just about everything before this point. We were a little worried in one of the prior encounters in this module with the

Spoiler

2 green dragons

, but we ended up finishing that encounter without a single party member bloodied, for instance. For a long time, our DM complained that he couldn't even drop someone unconscious. And then this stretch totally wiped the floor with us.

Maybe he tweaked monster damage using the MM3 standards? That would do the trick.

As for the Warlord not being enough of a healer...I've never felt like I couldn't do enough healing, and the party's never felt like they were lacking in the heal support.

Well, you were, by your own admission, never challenged

 

[Stumblewyk]

Maybe he tweaked monster damage using the MM3 standards? That would do the trick.

You know what? I hadn't even considered that - I pointed this out to him a few weeks back, that the monster damage got bumped up in MM3, and his eyes kind of lit up when I mentioned it.

He might have done just that...but, he doesn't seem like the kind of DM who likes to deviate from what's published in front of him. He tends to run adventures straight from the module without coloring outside the lines, so to speak.

Regardless, good catch.

 

[unan oranis]

You managed to put it all on to one 50/50 roll, which is pretty good really.

I mean at least you had a decent "moment of truth".

Perhaps the party could have gone spastic with bull rushes once you had him on the edge?

You could have volunteered to over the edge with the guy to get an automatic success or at least a penalty to the guys save (if your dm allowed it).

Perhaps you could have negotiated with him, after all one guy vs 5/4/3 still seems pretty dangerous even if the odds were in his favor.

Perhaps you could have played dead, or ran?

I don't understand how you couldn't get a full rest, at least you could have been defending a choke point or something, were you on a time limit?

Was the enemy aware of your raid? Could you have disguised yourselves? This guy was a weapons dealer? You could have maybe pretended to be customers or agents of some kind.

Rolling lots of natural 20's helps too...

With some luck you could attempt to bluff that you were casting a ritual that summons a super-ally so they thought they had to attack *you*... or whatever would appear to kaibosh the enemies plans/hopes.

---

Overall though it sounded like you guys went in knowing you were behind the eight ball, and you probably should have had some kind of plan - escape or otherwise - before engaging.

Sounds like an epic battle though, and you won the glory at least! have fun with the next batch. It's always cool to know your victories are well earned and you've overcome "real" danger, fudging dm's are pretty lame IMO.

 

[Ryujin]

Whether through bad luck or bad tactics, the error was made when you first entered. Our group has come to think that in most of those modules, the "gatekeepers" tend to be tougher than the following encounters. As a result we simply don't hold back, when trying to get our proverbial feet in the door. What you save in powers, you lose in healing.

The temptation to try and hold onto Daily powers is big. Unfortunately it sometimes just isn't the right way to go.

 

[Stumblewyk]

You managed to put it all on to one 50/50 roll, which is pretty good really.

Not really 50/50, the DM let it be known that Sarshan got a +5 on saves, in addition to the +2 he got due to the "crenelations" on the edge of the tower.

Perhaps the party could have gone spastic with bull rushes once you had him on the edge?

Couldn't keep him there. He had a rechargeable teleport power, and his spot in initiative made it easy for him to get away from the edge, even with the Wizard's Vision of Avarice in full effect.

Perhaps you could have negotiated with him, after all one guy vs 5/4/3 still seems pretty dangerous even if the odds were in his favor.

Maybe. But not likely. Our arrival was expected, and he

Spoiler

was kinda psycho and mutated

.

I don't understand how you couldn't get a full rest, at least you could have been defending a choke point or something, were you on a time limit?

The tower was sinking into magma sea at an undisclosed rate of speed, but it was made obvious that there was no time for extended resting.

Was the enemy aware of your raid? Could you have disguised yourselves? This guy was a weapons dealer? You could have maybe pretended to be customers or agents of some kind.

Like I said, we were expected, he knew who we were, and why we were there.

Overall though it sounded like you guys went in knowing you were behind the eight ball, and you probably should have had some kind of plan - escape or otherwise - before engaging.

Sounds like an epic battle though, and you won the glory at least! have fun with the next batch. It's always cool to know your victories are well earned and you've overcome "real" danger, fudging dm's are pretty lame IMO.

Absolutely. It was cool - tragic - but cool. We knew were in trouble, but the nature of the scenario really made escape...I don't want to say impossible, but highly improbable at best. It really was presented to us as a "go in knowing you might not be coming back, or don't go in at all" type situation.

 

[Mengu]

Going into the last encounter, you were already doomed. In the earlier encounters it sounds like you spent too much in the way of healing resources, and not enough daily powers. This is a dreaded situation for the DM. PC's feel safe in early encounters and hang onto daily resources, taking more hits, which in the end game doesn't leave them with enough surges. 5 12th level PC's should realize between them they have 15 daily attack powers. Even in moderate encounters, 2 players can use a daily to make things simpler, and even at that rate, on the 5th difficult encounter, they will have 7 dailies left.

It isn't an easy management game, but with potentially even skill challenges eating up healing surges, PC's should try to deter early expenditure of healing surges when they can.

 

[renau1g]

One great ritual that I love is the one to transfer HS's to the members of the party. It can be a lifesaver when used correctly. My warden with 14 surges never ran out of them at the Extended Rest. However, once we got this ritual it really helped our group.