Space/Reach Mounts & Texas highways

[Vraille Darkfang]

Well, this sure was a shock.

I'm DM'ing a 3.5 game (overall I like it better, barely, than 3.o). My party is nearly 20th level. But, we just had the first character come in who actually used a mount on a regular basis (a human paladin). So I decided to whip out my books & read up on mounted combat. It was then I realized where 3.5 really screws things up. Specifically when a medium character is riding a large mount.

In 3.0 who had a space/facing combo system where large (long) mounts were 2 5' squares long. Now in 3.5 all creatures are based on squares. A medium character takes up 1 5' square & a large creature takes up 4 squares. (see below)

12
34

If 1 & 2 are the mounts front end & 3 & 4 the mounts back end; exactly where does the 1 square medium rider go? Square 3? Square 4? the quarter sections of squares 1,2,3,4 that would make up a 5' square in the middle of the other 5' squares? If I'm situated on Square 3 and a goblin is attaking me in the square next to 4; does it need a Reach weapon to hit me? Do I need a reach weapon to attack him?

Also if a what to hitch up 2 horses in tandem to draw a chariot (think Ben-Hur), does it have to be 20' wide? After all each mount needs a 10' wide space. Would this mean a road has to be 40' wide to allow 2 wagons to pass side by side (thus the Texas highway reference).

Does anyone know of rules clarification on this issue? Did I miss something in the core books?

Vraille Darkfang

"Are you sure you want to desecrate the alter to the storm god in that manner?"
"Yep, my dwarven barbarian's positive. He just drank about 4 gallons of ale and has to do something."
"OK. Take 40 points of damage as lightning spews forth from the alter along a very specfic trajectory. He He He"

Ture story.

 

[mikebr99]

A mount needs at 10'x10' box in order to fight... You can assume that the rider is everywhere within that 10'x10' square. So the rider can attack 5' or more outside that box.

You do not need a reach weapon to attack the rider.

Mike

 

[Pax]

Just as CHARACTERS do not have any true Facing, so too MOUNTS do not, either. So "1 and 2" are not the mount's front - no two squares are the "front of the mount".

As Mike says, the rider is considered to share the mount's "face", IOW, if the mount is there, the rider can be assumed to be there too. The rider does NOT, however, gain the same reach as the mount.

For example, if you're a Medium character on a Huge mount (say, a drow blackguard riding a really BIG spider), the mount occupies 9 squares:

123
456
789

Any creature that can attack into ANY of those nine squares, can attack the Drow or the spider, at their option; the drow is not assumed to be in square "5".

The spider has a 10' reach; if the Drow is not wielding a reach weapon, he retains his own 5' reach - the spider will get to attack things before the Drow can. If, OTOH, the drow was SMART, and brought a reach weapon along (like a lance), the drow has 10' of reach too.

Just as he would have, were he standing on his own two legs, and not riding the spider.

Remember that in 3.5, one's Face represents the room you need to move around in during a fight, NOT the actual volume you occupy with your body - that Huge spider may only occupy, sans legs, as much room as a horse's torso. Merely to WALK, it may only need a 10x10 area.

But to fight, and be able to duck from side to side, do the whole dodge-and-weave routine, and so on ... it needs a fifteen-by-fifteen area in which to move around.

 

[the Jester]

Well, the issue of fighting on a mount is covered above. As to chariots, I'd allow the horses to 'squeeze' into a single 10x10 space with the 'box' behind them so:

12
12
33
33

Here the 1's are one horse, the 2's are another, and the 3's are the box. This gives the horses penalties to AC and attacks (as they're squeezing) but I don't see why you couldn't train them to overcome the penalty to AC with Handle Animal.

 

[mikebr99]

As Mike says, the rider is considered to share the mount's "face", IOW, if the mount is there, the rider can be assumed to be there too. The rider does NOT, however, gain the same reach as the mount.

Which I hope I didn't imply from my post...

Mike

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

A mount needs at 10'x10' box in order to fight... You can assume that the rider is everywhere within that 10'x10' square. So the rider can attack 5' or more outside that box.

Mike

Does then give the fighter fake reach?

****
*12*
*34*
****

Assume each of the * is an orc. The 1234 is a 12th lvl fighter on a heavy warhorse. If the fighter is considered everywhere in the 10 by 10 square can all 12 orcs attack him (assuming none think to attack the horse for some reason). Normally only 8 medium creatures can attack another medium creature. Can the fighter attack any of the 12 orcs attacking him? If he drops orc above 1, can he then use his second attack to hit the orc below 4? I'm asking as if all the orcs can attack him without reach weapons, then he should be able to attack those same orcs without reach weapons.

And then their is Cleave/Great Cleave (not that i care as the affected PC has niether feat).

I'm asking all these questions since they are going to come up in my games and it is very important to me that my DM-rulings are fair and balanced. My 8 playres have re-arranged their schedules, race over form work, or even drive 30 minutes just to be in my game every Wed. If their willing to do so much to show up, I figure I owe them to deliver the best game I can.

Vraille Darkfang

 

[mikebr99]

Does then give the fighter fake reach?
Vraille Darkfang

Yup!


Mike

 

[Shin Okada]

Regarding drawn vehicles. Now the rule in AEG does not work in 3.5e as the rule for space (face) has changed. And there is no rule update for that book yet.

If I were you, I will treat entire vehicle, including whichever number of mounts, to occupy an appropriately sized spaces. For example, in 3.0e rule, a double chariot were a large vehicle, and had a face like this,

*13*
*24*
**5*
**6*

1+2 is the left horse, 3+4 is the right horse, and 5+6 is the chariot.

Now, in 3.5e, I will treat a double chariot to be a huge vehicle which shares 3x3 squares. This includes 2 horses. As per the rule regarding mount combat, the driver is assumed to have 3x3 square spaces while he is fighting on a chariot.

This is a crude conversion, but may work I guess.

 

[tauton_ikhnos]

Horse jockeys around the world were puzzled this morning, when their horses took off at exactly half speed in the first race of the day. Although they had plenty of clearance on either side, the horses acted "squeezed" and seemed to have difficulty shoving through the space of their track.

Gershwin Oddles, jockey for Misty Morning By The Hill, had another explanation, "It was like... she was expecting combat, you know? She moved slow, because she was on the defensive, and there wasn't enough space for it. How do you dodge spears and spiked chains if you have to stay inside your lane?"