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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
"Speaker in Dreams" is one of the twinkiest adventures ever written
- Thread starter King_Stannis
- Start date
Dr_Rictus
First Post
King_Stannis said:
That would be a very cogent remark if we all agreed that your example constituted "throwing a bunch of outlandish monsters at the PC's."
To me, what this looks like is a setup that actually hangs together fairly well under a theme, with reasonable explanations for why most of these creatures would be encountered.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
KS, I pretty much agreed with you when I started trying to run Speaker in Dreams -- so I made some major modifications to the adventure's backstory that enabled me to keep most of the monsters (I threw out some of the demons and dinosaurs, because we were wanting to resolve the adventure).
Check out my revisions if you want!
Daniel
Check out my revisions if you want!
Daniel
King_Stannis said:
Well, that's exactly the approach that D&D 3e's designers chose to take. Expect to see pixies flying down the streets of a city, flitting by imp familiars bearing messages to be handed off to golem bodyguards. Nothing inspires wonder or dread. The game has become more and more inbred in its notion that magic should be strictly utilitarian, not something fantastic, mysterious, and exotic. Spells and magic items are as commonplace as technology, and the things that might inspire awe in the worlds of Tolkein or Leiber are mundane and unimpressive in the increasingly inbred world of D&D.
In short, the world of an official D&D campaign setting does not so much resemble the worlds of heroic fantasy as presented in the fictional sources that inspired D&D, but rather as it is presented in the worlds of the brainless video games that were inspired by it. Regard D&D as a video game in a different medium, and you'll get along just fine.
Last edited:
The_lone_gunman
First Post
Felon said:
Well I usually hold my tongue when I see opinions such as these but today I feel a bit randy.
I have to say, what the hell is the point in playing a fantasy game with barely any fantasy? To me the whole point of playing in D&D is to do things and see things you can't do or see in the REAL world. For me, this is lots of magic, lots of interesting places, lots of interesting creatures, a great story, plenty of roleplaying, and good combat. I just don't see how people get off on "humanistic" campaigns that don't have the wonder that D&D was designed for.
Now I am not saying that if this is your cup of tea, IE playing with humans in cities and the only magical item at 9th lvl that you have is a +1 sword that has 20 pages of history, is wrong, but it is certaininly not "better" or "more sophisticated (let me lift my nose in the air at you with your "uber" stuff)" than games with high magic. Just because a game has high magic doesnt make it stupid or "like a computer game".
In all my 20 years of gaming, I have always found that the best roleplaying hands down comes when your party really starts to have the power to make decisions that directly effect the role of the gaming world the DM is creating for you. It certainly doesnt make it "just like a video game".
Of course anything done over and over again and made boring can become repititious. If the DM is throwing exotic beast after exotic beast at you every time you turn the corner, it is going to get boring. A good DM will balance that wonder for you regardless of the number of magic items you have or the amount of gold in your pocket.
D&D is what you make of it. Regardless of the setting, power level, etc. It takes a lot more work to get the High fantasy to not get boring and repetitious, and I think a lot of DM's get lazy and just start handing out the cash/money/power without regards to balance. That is when you see a problem, when there is no challenge.
As an example I would take SHARK's campaign. From what I have read of his games, they seem to be pretty high fantasy, but something tells me his game is awesome to play with and not "Baldur's Gate II" at the gaming table. The DM makes it what it is, high magic or low.
Sorry for the Rant, I just get tired of seeing my gaming style titled as wrong.
TLG
Founder of B.A.L.M.
Bothered About Low Magic
Hammerhead
Explorer
Personally, I think Speaker in Dreams is a great adventure; it has a wide, diverse cast of interesting villains, great locations for fights, it's very long, some good oppurtunity for role-playing and drama. It's even better with the Web Enhancement.
Although you may not enjoy "high fantasy," most people do. The reason that magic has become more mundane is that people want to play wizards, they want to make magical items, and they want to have powerful spells or abilities. And, quite frankly, I think those visions of imps flying overhead, with golems in the streets, would evoke a sense of wonder. Ever see Harry Potter? I think that castle evokes a sense of wonder.
Although you may not enjoy "high fantasy," most people do. The reason that magic has become more mundane is that people want to play wizards, they want to make magical items, and they want to have powerful spells or abilities. And, quite frankly, I think those visions of imps flying overhead, with golems in the streets, would evoke a sense of wonder. Ever see Harry Potter? I think that castle evokes a sense of wonder.
I don't want to presume to speak for KS, but I think you missed his point. It is not a question of High Magic/Low Magic, but erratic magic. IMO, the monsters appeared to be randomly selected and thrown together with little continuity. That was my problem with TSID. With that said, my player liked it. Next time they see a Wyste they will surely runThe_lone_gunman said:
Mean DM
The_lone_gunman
First Post
Mean DM said:
I don't want to presume to speak for KS, but I think you missed his point. It is not a question of High Magic/Low Magic, but erratic magic. IMO, the monsters appeared to be randomly selected and thrown together with little continuity. That was my problem with TSID. With that said, my player liked it. Next time they see a Wyste they will surely run
Mean DM
I was more responding to Felon
I haven't read the speaker in dreams but then again, I have yet to run a module that I didn't change considerably so most of his points about it specifically are probably valid
TLG
SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
Hey, thanks Lone Gunman! I'm glad that you enjoy my campaign! Indeed, my campaign has nothing in common with "video games".
Long ago--I suppose it has been over 20 years ago now since I started playing D&D, my best friend at the time, who taught me how to play D&D, later on when I was DMing, we were talking about campaign concepts and such, and one of the things that he said which has stayed with me ever since, was the following:
"I think that the +5 Vorpal swords are in the game for a reason, just like all the other cool spells and magic items are. If my characters can never have such items, and enjoy using such spells, abilities, and items, then what is the point? I'm not playing so that I can struggle to ever get to be 20th level and be lucky to have a +1 sword. That isn't fantastic, that isn't wondrous, and at the end of the day, it isn't very fun. Part of the fun of D&D is getting the opportunity to have all of these strange abilities, magic items, races, and so on."
I have thought about that a lot, and it has guided my games ever since. I don't have "Monty Haul" games, where mountains of treasure are gained for silly combats, or defeating absurd or weak opponents. But the enemies that the characters do face off against are epic, terrible, and fantastic. It was true in 1st Edition, as it is in 3rd Edition, that the strange races, the wierd abilities, the incredible spells, and the awesome magic items are essential ingredients to the game. Assuredly, not for all, but for myself, and for the players that I have always played with, being willing to embrace all of the fantastic that the game makes possible and available to the players and DM's alike has always been a key element of having the greatest deal of fun throughout the campaign.
I'm not afraid to use all the fantastic stuff in the game, and I embrace it fully. I have played in other systems, and other campaigns, where there is low magic, and only humans, or where other races are unusual. Such campaigns can be fun for awhile, but after a time, they seem to wind down. They just aren't as fun, because by default, they don't have as many options as more fantastic games. For example, say you are in the kitchen, proceeding to cook a meal. If you only have three types of vegetables to choose from, you are limited in what you can make. On the other hand, if you have 10 different vegetables, then what you can make is increased in variety. You thus have more freedom, and more creativity. You don't have to actually *use* every vegetable, but having them in the kitchen--or the campaign--provides you with more options than if you only have three kinds of vegetables. The same thing can be said for game campaigns.
As anyone who reads stuff about my campaign would recognize, my campaign certainly doesn't lack direction or focus, or drama. I have found that making use of all the different monsters, abilities, and so on, and letting my players just run wild with their imaginations, and embracing the different races and magic items in the books, encourages them to blossom creatively, and have more fun. They can dream. They can play characters that stretch the boundaries of their imaginations, and that isn't something that you can do if all that you are is a 5th level fighter with a +1 sword, you know?
It is with these thoughts in mind that I allow most of the spells; I allow all kinds of strange monsters and creatures in the game, both as opponets, and as player characters; I embrace high levels, and I use just about any and all magic items to build a fantastic, bizarre world that not only is fun, but continues to amaze and inspire my players.
This is my sincere hope, and this is my sincere committment.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Hey, thanks Lone Gunman!
I'm glad that you enjoy my campaign! Indeed, my campaign has nothing in common with "video games".Long ago--I suppose it has been over 20 years ago now since I started playing D&D, my best friend at the time, who taught me how to play D&D, later on when I was DMing, we were talking about campaign concepts and such, and one of the things that he said which has stayed with me ever since, was the following:
"I think that the +5 Vorpal swords are in the game for a reason, just like all the other cool spells and magic items are. If my characters can never have such items, and enjoy using such spells, abilities, and items, then what is the point? I'm not playing so that I can struggle to ever get to be 20th level and be lucky to have a +1 sword. That isn't fantastic, that isn't wondrous, and at the end of the day, it isn't very fun. Part of the fun of D&D is getting the opportunity to have all of these strange abilities, magic items, races, and so on."
I have thought about that a lot, and it has guided my games ever since. I don't have "Monty Haul" games, where mountains of treasure are gained for silly combats, or defeating absurd or weak opponents. But the enemies that the characters do face off against are epic, terrible, and fantastic. It was true in 1st Edition, as it is in 3rd Edition, that the strange races, the wierd abilities, the incredible spells, and the awesome magic items are essential ingredients to the game. Assuredly, not for all, but for myself, and for the players that I have always played with, being willing to embrace all of the fantastic that the game makes possible and available to the players and DM's alike has always been a key element of having the greatest deal of fun throughout the campaign.
I'm not afraid to use all the fantastic stuff in the game, and I embrace it fully. I have played in other systems, and other campaigns, where there is low magic, and only humans, or where other races are unusual. Such campaigns can be fun for awhile, but after a time, they seem to wind down. They just aren't as fun, because by default, they don't have as many options as more fantastic games. For example, say you are in the kitchen, proceeding to cook a meal. If you only have three types of vegetables to choose from, you are limited in what you can make. On the other hand, if you have 10 different vegetables, then what you can make is increased in variety. You thus have more freedom, and more creativity. You don't have to actually *use* every vegetable, but having them in the kitchen--or the campaign--provides you with more options than if you only have three kinds of vegetables. The same thing can be said for game campaigns.
As anyone who reads stuff about my campaign would recognize, my campaign certainly doesn't lack direction or focus, or drama. I have found that making use of all the different monsters, abilities, and so on, and letting my players just run wild with their imaginations, and embracing the different races and magic items in the books, encourages them to blossom creatively, and have more fun. They can dream. They can play characters that stretch the boundaries of their imaginations, and that isn't something that you can do if all that you are is a 5th level fighter with a +1 sword, you know?
It is with these thoughts in mind that I allow most of the spells; I allow all kinds of strange monsters and creatures in the game, both as opponets, and as player characters; I embrace high levels, and I use just about any and all magic items to build a fantastic, bizarre world that not only is fun, but continues to amaze and inspire my players.
This is my sincere hope, and this is my sincere committment.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
King_Stannis
Explorer
It's not an indictment of high magic, per se, SHARK. My rant was more aimed at the goofiness of the adventure. High magic is not inherently bad. It's just that if characters get too much too early, there is nothing left for when they hit their stride in the higher levels. ("Oh what's this - a +4 defender, I got one of those back at 5th level.)
Regardless, I would love to play in your inspired campaign world.
Regardless, I would love to play in your inspired campaign world.
