Breakstone
First Post
Amen, SHARK!
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
"Speaker in Dreams" is one of the twinkiest adventures ever written
- Thread starter King_Stannis
- Start date
Vocenoctum
First Post
King_Stannis said:
Well, when the evil guy opens a gate to Hell, fiendish creatures tend to arrive through it..
IMO, the only part that actually fits your complaint is the evil cleric, he's a half fiend, or tiefling or whatever, and it's just not needed.
The rest of the monsters are in place, specifically BECAUSE they are not typical. If it was "normal" to see fiends in the alleyways, it wouldn't be an adventure at all.
There are plenty of normal people in teh city, they just don't concern this particular evil plot.
darkbard
Legend
while i certainly agree that a random array of monsters thrown at players is a BAD THING, "speaker in dreams" is hardly that, as already pointed out above. the monstrous villains are all tied together in a web of deceit, subterfuge, and malicious intent, waiting to spring a series of events upon the citizens of brindenford that the illithid hopes will ulitmately create him a small empire of slaves. the appearance of more fantastical creatures (fiendish dinosaurs and what) is what happens when such evil succeeds at its initial plans and is not suggested to be the standard state of affairs for a fantasy city. it is situations like this that give adventurers a reason to exist in the fantasy society.
that said, monte cook (you know ... one of the creators of this version of the game) has gone to great pains to create a realistic setting for his own campaign ... defining "realistic" to mean a believable setting where the rules of d&d make sense for the society ... ie why there are adventurers who risk their lives on a daily basis, why dungeons exist in great quantities, why fantastical creatures can be in close proximity to human settlements. his ptolus campaign is an example of a design philosophy which tries to make the setting fit the rules in a viable manner and not the reverse: creating a setting and then fleshing out rules for it. most of us love the rules of d&d and yearn for a setting where such rules fit the entire flow and do not brand our characters as outrageous freaks out of step with their surroundings.
james wyatt creates such a setting in "speaker" (which is the published module my group had the most fun with and which had the most believable and detailed storyline that i did not have to significantly alter before play). the adventure is designed for 5th level characters (still relatively low-level), and yet the spellcasters can hurl fireballs or fly. in a world where such adventurers are, if not commonplace, a viable component of society, of course they should face threats like those in the book, the monstrous forces of evil that are always looking to subjugate the innocent to their nefarious designs. if you are willing to play a game where your character has such powers, why is it so hard to believe his opponents would be such equally "unrealistic" entities? why is an illithid or a half-fiendish cleric more unrealistic in a fantasy setting than human npc's with the same (or similar) abilities (which they would have to have to be appropriate challenges for pc's of this level).
nowhere in the adventure is it suggested that the characters should become inured to the fantastic or awe-inspiring threats they will face at higher levels (see the other modules in the adventure path series; you'll notice there's quite a variety of threats and rewards). and, no, there are no +4 defending weapons in this adventure. it is designed properly, in balance with the rules as written, and an appropriate challenge for characters of 5th level.
that said, monte cook (you know ... one of the creators of this version of the game) has gone to great pains to create a realistic setting for his own campaign ... defining "realistic" to mean a believable setting where the rules of d&d make sense for the society ... ie why there are adventurers who risk their lives on a daily basis, why dungeons exist in great quantities, why fantastical creatures can be in close proximity to human settlements. his ptolus campaign is an example of a design philosophy which tries to make the setting fit the rules in a viable manner and not the reverse: creating a setting and then fleshing out rules for it. most of us love the rules of d&d and yearn for a setting where such rules fit the entire flow and do not brand our characters as outrageous freaks out of step with their surroundings.
james wyatt creates such a setting in "speaker" (which is the published module my group had the most fun with and which had the most believable and detailed storyline that i did not have to significantly alter before play). the adventure is designed for 5th level characters (still relatively low-level), and yet the spellcasters can hurl fireballs or fly. in a world where such adventurers are, if not commonplace, a viable component of society, of course they should face threats like those in the book, the monstrous forces of evil that are always looking to subjugate the innocent to their nefarious designs. if you are willing to play a game where your character has such powers, why is it so hard to believe his opponents would be such equally "unrealistic" entities? why is an illithid or a half-fiendish cleric more unrealistic in a fantasy setting than human npc's with the same (or similar) abilities (which they would have to have to be appropriate challenges for pc's of this level).
nowhere in the adventure is it suggested that the characters should become inured to the fantastic or awe-inspiring threats they will face at higher levels (see the other modules in the adventure path series; you'll notice there's quite a variety of threats and rewards). and, no, there are no +4 defending weapons in this adventure. it is designed properly, in balance with the rules as written, and an appropriate challenge for characters of 5th level.
You're right. Thanx for the clarificationThe_lone_gunman said:I was more responding to Felon
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I will grant you that they are tied together, but in a knot that is counterproductive IMO. I can easily imagine an Illithid having a this very plot. But as soon as he brings in the hordes of hell, he'll have every good alligned cleric, paladin, monk, fighter, bard, wizard, etc. crawling out of every nook and cranny within a hundred miles to vanquish this evil. No martial law/curfew is going to keep this little infernal invasion under cover. So much for the slave empire. There there is an element of subtlety to subterfuge. This fact was lost (with all due respect) in Wyatt's creation.darkbard said:
But take this criticism with a grain of salt. I'm becoming increasingly aware that I prefer and epic, but low magic game
. Mean What? I'm just an demon walking around in broad daylight. What's the problem?Go back to work! DM
I like the module greatly, as did my players.
One thing I liked was the mind-flayer's complete lack of understanding of how humans would react!
It seemed a good idea at the time in the Underdark, I'm sure, but the execution was lacking...
One other thing I liked was how the villain actually sends assassins after the PCs once they start interfering. He's smart, but he's not quite smart enough.
Cheers!
One thing I liked was the mind-flayer's complete lack of understanding of how humans would react!
It seemed a good idea at the time in the Underdark, I'm sure, but the execution was lacking...
One other thing I liked was how the villain actually sends assassins after the PCs once they start interfering.
He's smart, but he's not quite smart enough.Cheers!
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Actually having played through the adventure...
It was just as goofy as people have said. It just seemed like someone had dumped a monster bash dungeon in the city. And then we meet the illithid, and we all just thought "buh? why was he there?".
To us, it looked like a random group of monsters had been chucked into the city, with no rhyme, reason or planning. I'm just glad it's over.
It was just as goofy as people have said. It just seemed like someone had dumped a monster bash dungeon in the city. And then we meet the illithid, and we all just thought "buh? why was he there?".
To us, it looked like a random group of monsters had been chucked into the city, with no rhyme, reason or planning. I'm just glad it's over.
Mean DM said:
We just finished with this adventure about a month ago. It took us two months (8 sessions) to complete.
Your right, the Illithid should have know that the horde of demons would draw attention. But, the fact is... he did know this. He summoned a demon, if I remember correctly, to serve him... and it turned out that the demon was working behind his back and opened a portal to bring in more demons.
After playing through this adventure, I have to say it is one of the better published adventures on the market. It never seemed silly to my group, though for most of it we were confused as to the connection between the multiple groups.
I just wanted to defend this excellent adventure, I think it is anything but 'twinkish'.
I thought this was the best of the adventure path up until Bastion. I made a couple little changes that I mentioned in my review. I figured an illithid would be in league with a cabal of psions, not sorcerers. The wystes disappeared, but my players still cringe at the sound of breaking glass that heralds an astral construct.
Oh, and the polymorphed dragon was there, but the players still haven't figured out who she is.
Oh, and the polymorphed dragon was there, but the players still haven't figured out who she is.
The_lone_gunman said:
OK, fair enough. Here's the way I see it: the easier it is for characters to load themselves up with spells, items, and other fun toys, the easier it is for characters to effortlessly deal with any problems they encounter, and the less likely they are to have to use their wits to escape a bad situation, or to have to draw upon their ability as role-players to deal with the long-term consequences of their actions (e.g. death). There's not a lot of problem-solving involved in escaping a room with the walls closing in if the characters can pop out with a snap of their fingers, so you're not going to achieve the same thrills that you'll find in an Indiana Jones movie. There's not a lot of dread in being stalked by supernatural creatures such as vampires or werewolves if characters are readily equipped with weapons that can split them in half, so you're not going to evoke the sense of sheer terror that a good horror movie delivers. And there's not a lot of drama when every negative condition that can be inflicted upon a character, up to and including death, can be remedied in an easy and routine manner, which is where D&D really breaks away from any kind of cinematic feel.
D&D is, quite by design, a game where characters can just mark off some resources to get around an obstacle and move along to the next encounter. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. It works. There's no need to inundate me with remarks about how little fun the game would be if characters were constantly bogged down by obstacles that took hours of real time to figure a way around. No need to explain to me how much it would suck if I had to throw away a character I've played for 15 or so levels because of a bad dice roll or a moment of bad judgment. I do get all that. But the bottom line is, D&D worlds operate much more like a video game than the fantasy worlds that you'll find in a movie or novel (unless, of course, the novel is D&D-inspired). That's not a condemnation, just an observation.
I agree completely; that doesn't make it just like a video game, but then again, having the power to effect significant changes upon the world doesn't require one to exist in a high-fantasy setting either. Conan managed to become a king without a +5 vorpal sword.
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Number47
First Post
Now, I never play modules myself, but I have one thing to say. If there were fiendish dinosaurs in the module, I might use them but I would never, ever, EVER tell my player that it was a dinosaur. A reptilian beast from hell with sixteen eyeballs and vestigial tentacles would certainly seem more evil while avoiding the goofiness of fighting a hellish dino.
For a reply to the whole high-magic/high-fantasy controversy going on, I run what could be called a low-magic world. In a city of fifty thousand people, over forty-nine thousand are commoners, experts and warriors. This does not mean the characters only ever see human opponents or that they only have a +1 sword at ninth level. What it means is that when they encounter a powerful wizard/strange monster/ancient magic, it really means something to them. The fact that they encounter these things all the freaking time compared to the rest of the populace just means that they are very special, destined people. So yes, you can have a "low-magic" world, but that does not mean a limited or low-magic campaign.
I have to say that if my character goes to a town and there are twenty highly-powerful wizards who you can just walk up to, wave a sack a gold in front of, and start ordering magic items off their menu, then something is wrong in the game world.
For a reply to the whole high-magic/high-fantasy controversy going on, I run what could be called a low-magic world. In a city of fifty thousand people, over forty-nine thousand are commoners, experts and warriors. This does not mean the characters only ever see human opponents or that they only have a +1 sword at ninth level. What it means is that when they encounter a powerful wizard/strange monster/ancient magic, it really means something to them. The fact that they encounter these things all the freaking time compared to the rest of the populace just means that they are very special, destined people. So yes, you can have a "low-magic" world, but that does not mean a limited or low-magic campaign.
I have to say that if my character goes to a town and there are twenty highly-powerful wizards who you can just walk up to, wave a sack a gold in front of, and start ordering magic items off their menu, then something is wrong in the game world.
