Spell Balance Question for Sublime Revelry

[A Man In Black]

Thanks for all of the comments. Playing a bunch of high level characters is a problem. Let me explain the current encounter some. They are facing off against around 105 9th level barbarians and their leaders. Thre are 12 clerics of 10th level, one high level druid, and a tough, BBG around CR22. Some of the barbarians have flying mounts (chimeras) and there are four giant monks of 6th level. The group is assaulting a hill top where the bad guys are camped. I thought that this would be a tough fight, but in 8 rounds, they've decimated the barbarians and the bulk of the captains, taken out all four monks, and ruduced the bulk of the chimera riders and the clerics to ash. At the end of their surprise and squad tactics, the leaders took flight to fight another day.

With or without that spell, that party should be able to all but ignore the efforts of CR8-10 encounters, no matter how many of them there are, for the same reason that a level 10 party (especially one with eight members) should be able to mow down any number of goblins. These are foes that should pose no challenge whatsoever to an 18th-level party.

As for the dragon, I'd love to talk about it. It took me four hours to design with the help of the Draconomicon, Epic, and the MM (3.5). I used a computer (E-tools) for the initial design. Once I loaded the dragon with a host of great sorcerer and cleric spells, I gave the dragon surprise, with 5 rounds of prep spells, including a Time Stop for an additional three rounds of prep. The Dragon's Lair was underground, but large enough for the dragon to Wingover for another Flyby Attack or breath weapon routine. SR was high, abilities were high, I even assumed that once the dragon had adopted a high enough INT, and enough 9th level spells, it cast repeated wishes on itself to boost its stats by +4; all of the ability scores. The first attack was from invisability and hit the group with a Maximized Breath Weapon. WHAM! Killed the Wizard. Singed some, others evaded. Then I flew into a perch high above to cast spells and wait for the breath weapon to return. The group was grounded due to Dragon Lair Protections of some such nonsense. Essentially no fly or levitation. So how did they do it. The dimension doored, they teleported, they even managed to stun the dragon for a round to allow the fighters a shot at him. I thought I had it in the bag with all the prep, and yes, I was looking to end the campaign right then and there. They beat it! It was tight, but they pulled it out. Anyhow, I can take critizism, lay it on me! In both cases, the group is just able to assorb to much HP with the spell. I could see it effecting less, but since I have eight, it just does too much help, at the end of the first 7 rounds of combat, the group in the barbarian camp raid have taken in most cases, less than 10% of their total HP. Toss in the fact that the cleric can cast a Mass Heal, twice, and that's 250 HP X 8 PCs X two spells; it's a lot to overcome.

So they expended at least three 9th-level spells and took a casualty against an extremely formidable foe, and you have a problem?

I think you underestimated the mobility of both the dragon and the party; the dragon could easily teleport somewhere completely inaccessible to the party to buff up again. Once a party can cast Dimension Door over and over again, there's not anywhere in LOS that should be inaccessible to them.

My thought now is to invent the counter spell and ask if it is balanced. How about a 9th level cleric spell that allowed all of your comrades to add 50% to all of their damage? Does that sound broken?

No, it wouldn't be balanced, for the same reason that Protection From Energy is lower-level than Fireball. Offense is always more valuable than defense, because defense can be circumvented.

It seems like the causes of your problems are overestimating the effectiveness of level 10 characters against level 17 characters and underestimating the mobility of a level 17 party. I don't think one (admittedly powerful) defensive spell is the cause.

 

[Thanee]

I thought I had it in the bag with all the prep, and yes, I was looking to end the campaign right then and there.

Uhm... how about you declare: “Hey guys! I would like to start a new campaign.”

Works sometimes.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Aluvial]

Uhm... how about you declare: “Hey guys! I would like to start a new campaign.”

Works sometimes.

Bye
Thanee

I'm working on just that... I just need to wrap up some of the loose ends...

Any grand ideas???

Aluvial

 

[Infiniti2000]

As for the dragon, I'd love to talk about it. It took me four hours to design with the help of the Draconomicon, Epic, and the MM (3.5). I used a computer (E-tools) for the initial design.

That's a long time to work on a single monster. Remember to tell yourself when you're done that you expect him to last about 1 minute in game time. Say your goodbyes and don't get upset when all of your work gets destroyed quickly by the PCs.

Once I loaded the dragon with a host of great sorcerer and cleric spells,

But not something like say, a mass resist energy fire. Or also that spell from Draconomicon that gives a certain number of creatures evasion. Did you pick spells appropriate to what you know the heroes regularly cast*?

I gave the dragon surprise, with 5 rounds of prep spells, including a Time Stop for an additional three rounds of prep. The Dragon's Lair was underground, but large enough for the dragon to Wingover for another Flyby Attack or breath weapon routine. SR was high, abilities were high, I even assumed that once the dragon had adopted a high enough INT, and enough 9th level spells, it cast repeated wishes on itself to boost its stats by +4; all of the ability scores. The first attack was from invisability and hit the group with a Maximized Breath Weapon. WHAM! Killed the Wizard. Singed some, others evaded. Then I flew into a perch high above to cast spells and wait for the breath weapon to return.

Sounds like a reasonable opening volley.

The group was grounded due to Dragon Lair Protections of some such nonsense. Essentially no fly or levitation. So how did they do it. The dimension doored, they teleported,

Two words for you: anticipate teleportation. Or, from core: foriddance. Or, unhallow with dimensional anchor. No dragon of sufficient level should have a lair unprotected from scrying/teleporting.

they even managed to stun the dragon for a round to allow the fighters a shot at him.

That's nontrivial. Did the dragon not have greater spell immunity or was this a Su effect?

Toss in the fact that the cleric can cast a Mass Heal, twice, and that's 250 HP X 8 PCs X two spells; it's a lot to overcome.

Mass heal is broken. That's for sure. There are a lot of factors in this and although your gripe on sublime revelry might be warranted, I certainly don't think it's important in this battle. Not at all.

* I'm not suggesting cheating here. Instead, at these high levels, I don't think the two sides will meet at random. Both sides will know about the other side. That's my opinion, anyway.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Any grand ideas???

Actually, no. In fact, I would suggest you end in a non-combat encounter. Make the last session (or two) entirely RP. IMO, it would almost be an injustice to try to end with a combat. The players won last time and I quite honestly think it makes an excellent climax. Finish up with perhaps a grand party, a celebration the world has never known. And have a 5th level thief steal the Key to the City.

 

[Shadowdweller]

About the dragon -- a lot of people play dragons 'wrong' (or rather, not to their full potential). It happens, don't worry about it. This is a side issue, so please excuse the digression, but I feel this happens because those same DMs don't like using dragons at lower levels. They feel (and I hear this from them) that dragons should be powerful and not so common at lower levels. Well, what that breeds is a total infamiliarity with dragons at any level. Now, this might not be you, or it might be, who knows. Unless you want to get into it, and can handle criticism, then don't worry about it.

True enough. However, also seems like (lower age-category, especially) dragons are sadly vulnerable to a number of different attacks. For instance enervation