Spell completion and spell trigger and save questions

[Pielorinho]

Hi, folks! I have a couple of questions about wands and saves and spellcraft:

1) I cast a minor image of a wall. An enemy makes his spellcraft check and walks right through it. I use my wand to create a minor image. Does the enemy get a spellcraft check? (I don't think so, since it's a spell trigger item, but figure I should check).
2) I cast a minor image of a wall. An enemy makes his spellcraft check. Can he automatically see through it now--that is, is the spellcraft check sufficient to count for an automatic save vs. the spell? I'm tempted to say that it does, except under specific circumstances (e.g., if I create the wall somewhere out of sight of the enemy, he won't immediately recognize it as the illusion when he sees it).
3) I have 6 levels of illusionist, giving me +3 rounds duration on any illusion spell with a duration of concentration. Does this apply to spells cast from wands or scrolls? I'm thinking it doesn't.

Now, a couple of specific uses of illusions:

4) We're fighting a huge giant, like 15' tall. I cast a minor image of a cloud bank that starts 6' off the ground, allowing my party's fighters to see his legs and knees clearly but not to see above that, and conversely keeping the giant from seeing my party's fighters. Would this work? Would this force the giant either to fight from a prone position or to exit the cloud or to fight as though blinded?
5) I create an illusion of a flying creature harrying the giant, in a position opposite a fighter. If the giant believes the flying creature is real, does this have any flanking effect?
6) If the giant decides to ignore the flying creature, and I then summon a real flying creature to replace the illusory one (with the replacement happening out of the giant's sight), does the giant's refusal to acknowledge what he thinks is illusory have any in-game effect?

 

[LogantheBard]

I don't know enough about the rules to give you real answers, but I wish my players were 1/4 this creative.

This is how I would play these out on the fly, because I don't like spending time looking up rules at the table:

1) I would use the same check/rules as if you had cast it normally.
2) I'd have to look this up. Does knowing that a figure is an illusion make it not be seen? or does it let you simply know that it's an illusion?
3) I would say yes, it applies.
4) I would treat this similar to the Obscuring Mist spell, but wouldn't be able to be blown away by wind. At 6th level, you'd be able to make 10, 10 foot cubes... it wouldn't take the giant but one round to move out of the cloud.
5) I'd let the first round give him flank bonus. After the first round of the bird "attacking" the giant would realize nothing hurts, and would ignore it.
6) I'd let the bird treat the giant as flatfooted for the first round, then the giant knows that it hurts now, so time to start paying attention, and therefore is now flanked.


Again, these would be my on-the-fly rulings. I'm interested on how close I am to the real rules.

 

[Pielorinho]

I don't know enough about the rules to give you real answers, but I wish my players were 1/4 this creative.

Thanks! It may help to link to the relevant rules for the questions I have:
Figment rules
Spell Trigger rules
Spellcraft rules

My guesses above are based on my understanding of how these rules intersect.

And I agree with you about not looking rules up in play. I'm asking these questions between sessions to prevent exactly that.

 

[jefgorbach]

AFB so unsure if this is IMC or RAW but....

1. -ALL- forms of magic are simply alt/n methods of applying a given spell, so while someone could attempt a spellcraft check to recognize if/what spell had been employed ... the real question is whether they would question whether such a wall might/might not exist in THAT particular location to begin with as its highly unlikely he'd routinely question/spellcheck "everything".

2. yes. IRC a successful save vs illusion confirms it is merely an illusion so a successful spellcheck should/would do the same thing.

3. correct ... rings, scrolls, wands and the like are enchanted at a preset level thereby the values for the various level-dependent variables.

4. yes, the party would gain the corresponding coverage from the giant's pov.

5. yes, because the giant believes he' being attack on multiple fronts and diverting/investing his attention accordingly.

6. not really. the giant is already "aware" of the illusonary foe and expects its eventual attack. Conversely, the swapped creature would gain an attack vs the flat-footed giant if it truly the victim believed the illusion was/remained a simple illusion and thus could/should not be able to actually attack.

 

[Pielorinho]

AFB so unsure if this is IMC or RAW but....

1. -ALL- forms of magic are simply alt/n methods of applying a given spell, so while someone could attempt a spellcraft check to recognize if/what spell had been employed ... the real question is whether they would question whether such a wall might/might not exist in THAT particular location to begin with as its highly unlikely he'd routinely question/spellcheck "everything".

I think you're confusing spellcraft (figure out a spell as it's cast) with knowledge: arcana (figure out what a currently-existing spell is). This is a change from 3.5, IIRC.

The argument against spellcrafting wands is that spell triggers are different from spell completion and spellcasting in a couple of ways. Wands have different command words for the same spell, I think. Wands don't provoke an AoO. It seems likely to me that an observer can't figure out the spell by hearing the trigger; this is different from spell-completion scrolls, where an observer who knows spellcraft CAN figure out the spell by watching the motions and hearing the trigger.

2. yes. IRC a successful save vs illusion confirms it is merely an illusion so a successful spellcheck should/would do the same thing.

A successful save vs. illusion allows you to see through it. This is key, because an illusory cloud (for example) provides excellent one-way concealment on the wizard's behalf. The question is whether a spellcraft check allows an automatic save.