Spell DCs

[Tywyll]

Ok, one issue we have always had problem with is that the difficulty to resist a caster's magic has little to do with the caster themselves. Now, in 3rd edition, we start to get some of that, in the form of stat mods, but the majority of the difficulty (in low and mid levels) comes from the spell... not the caster. This creates the odd assertion that someone who has practiced with and trained with something like Charm Person gets no better with overcoming the wills of their targets (except by boosting stats or buying a feat).

But 3rd has a mechanic for such things... monsters use it with their spell like abilities. Why not base Saves on 10+ 1/2 the caster level + stat? It seems like it would be easier to figure as the number would not change with every spell, and it keeps a high level caster from disregarding their lower level repitiore.

So, has anyone tried this? If so, what were the implications? Did it work, is it broken? I realize that higher level casters have little chance of any of their spells failing against lower level targets but... well... this seems obvious. A higher level fighter will almost always hit a lower level one, and typically do more damage.

Thoughts?

 

[Yair]

Well, since (major) spellcaster classes gain 1 spell level per 2 class levels, what you are essentially doing is (more or less) allowing all save DCs to be based on the highest-level spell the character can cast, instead of on the specific spell cast. While this does strengthen spellcasters, I don't think the effects would be so great as to be "broken" or so on. The chief difference would be of flavor.
Now, in order to cast a spell to affect a powerful foe the spellcaster flings his most powerful spells. With your system, he could fling any spell (with the exception of a few HRD dependant spells at el, and with lesser effects, but still).
I prefer to have the spellcasters reserve their BIG spells to the foe; I consider it more satisfying. If I wanted to allow them to cast any spell at the big villains, I would simply grant them all the Heighten Spell feat. It takes a powerful spellcaster to penetrate that foe's defense, yes, but only if he is investing all he's got into it. What the experience got him is the ability to cast higher-level spells, not to be able to cast lower-level spells more powerfully. The spell level represents the spellcasters power, not his class level (which is why an adept, for example, would cast less-powerful spells even at high spellcaster levels).
That being said, I do consider it an issue of flavor. Your rules would make spellcasters more powerful, but I don't see them as ruining the game for you or your players - which is what it is all about.

 

[hong]

Ok, one issue we have always had problem with is that the difficulty to resist a caster's magic has little to do with the caster themselves. Now, in 3rd edition, we start to get some of that, in the form of stat mods, but the majority of the difficulty (in low and mid levels) comes from the spell... not the caster. This creates the odd assertion that someone who has practiced with and trained with something like Charm Person gets no better with overcoming the wills of their targets (except by boosting stats or buying a feat).

But 3rd has a mechanic for such things... monsters use it with their spell like abilities. Why not base Saves on 10+ 1/2 the caster level + stat? It seems like it would be easier to figure as the number would not change with every spell, and it keeps a high level caster from disregarding their lower level repitiore.

Saves for spell-like abilities are 10 + spell level + stat mod. You're thinking of supernatural abilities.

 

[Spatzimaus]

The reason switching to that is a bad idea is a question of scaling. Let's see if I can explain the situation without devolving into heavy math.

The most important combat spells are your highest ones. No matter what level you are, you'll always only have a handful of these; the big difference is how many lower-level ones you have. So, the relative balance between spellcasters and swordchuckers is maintained.
If you allow all spells to have the same DC, then you end up with high-level Wizards being able to cast thirty or forty spells per day, all of which have a good chance of killing or disabling their enemies. This is HUGE. It effectively removes the only real limiting factor on Wizards (the small number of effective combat spells per day), and makes them far superior.

Then also, it's a question of Good vs. Poor saves. A class that gets the "Good" save progression (Fort for Fighters, Ref for Rogues, etc.) will raise that more quickly than the Wizard raises his INT bonus. End result, at high levels to hit a Rogue with a spell with a Reflex save requires you to use your BEST spell to have any chance at all. On the other hand, if you used a spell with a Fort save instead, you could stick with your lower spells and still be effective.
So, those lower spell slots can still be used effectively for attack spells, IF you pay attention to what kind of enemies you're fighting.
On the other hand, switching to a flat DC, independent of spell level, would mean you'd only ever need to use your low-level slots for combat spells, since they'd be just as effective. Hold Person would be really scary if it always had the save of a 9th-level spell, especially if you Chain Spell it. The saves of the target almost wouldn't matter; a 20th-level Wizard with INT of, say, 26 would have a DC of 28 for all spells. For a Fighter, even his good Fort save has a moderate chance of failing that, and his Will or Reflex saves would fail automatically.

 

[Planesdragon]

I do this.

But 3rd has a mechanic for such things... monsters use it with their spell like abilities. Why not base Saves on 10+ 1/2 the caster level + stat? It seems like it would be easier to figure as the number would not change with every spell, and it keeps a high level caster from disregarding their lower level repitiore.

So, has anyone tried this? If so, what were the implications? Did it work, is it broken? I realize that higher level casters have little chance of any of their spells failing against lower level targets but... well... this seems obvious. A higher level fighter will almost always hit a lower level one, and typically do more damage.

In my home game (AASB), I use this for the spell DC mechanics. Of course, I also use a wholly different spell system... but the save DCs seem to work just fine.

It acutally hurts when I play my FRCS drow cleric--her spell DCs are so bad that, as I recall, she's never had a spell go right!


The biggest problem with this system, IMO, is save-or-die spells. Either nerf those, require two failed saves, or make death magic easier to reverse / protect against.

 

[DaveStebbins]

As others have said, the by-the-book method of setting save DCs doesn't take caster level into account directly, but setting spell DCs by caster level means all of a caster's spells have the same DC. It becomes just as difficult to save versus his first level spells as against his ninth. If you try to account for both, it becomes more convoluted than many people will want to worry about.

It's a matter of what you're comfortable with. I think it should be more difficult to save versus higher level spells and I have no problem with caster level affecting DC only indirectly (through gained feats, stat increases and magic items), so I'm happy with the system as is.

Others have pointed out problems you may see setting DC by caster level, but it is a common enough idea that you probably won't ruin a campaign by adopting the rule. If you think the gain is worth the change, just keep the good advice people gave above in mind and go for it.

-Dave

 

[wolff96]

Another possibility is to introduce a new method for spell DCs, influenced by caster level but NOT by attribute.

10 + 1/2 Caster Level + Spell Level

You still get a progression of spells that emphasizes the power of higher level spells, but now your save DCs are highly influenced by the caster's personal power. Save DCs will be a bit lower at the opening levels, but will scale nicely -- moving up to the equivalent of a 30 in the casting stat. Further modifications could be made by Spell Focus and other feats.

The attribute would still modify your highest level of spells available and your bonus spells per day, so it would still be worthwhile to have a high stat.

Any comments?

 

[Tywyll]

Using spell level

That is an interesting idea, using the spell level instead of casting stat. My only concern with it is that at high levels (and I am thinking epic here) I think it might pitter out a bit. But then, it might not... no sure way but to try it.

As to the others that have commented that the proposed change would make saves versus low level spells just as difficult as high... well, that is the point. I have issues with spells being limited twice (the level of the spell capping what spells are capable of AND the DC) while caster power to overcome opponents is only taken into account once (spell pen). Meanwhile, that fighter can swing all day...

Thanks for the opinions and commentary. Has given me some things to chew on. I think I will mull this over and throw it out to the group, see what they think. If they like it, we'll give it a shot. If it works I will post the results.

 

[Gothmog]

I have used a variant spell DC since about 6 months after 3E came out, with no negative repurcussions. It is:

10 + 1/2 Caster level + spell level

Works very nicely. It takes into account the caster's knowledge, the power of the spell, and scales well with level so that 1-3rd level spells aren't useless at higher levels.

 

[Tywyll]

Using 1/2 HD and SL

Doesn't using only 10+1/2 HD + SL result in weaker spell casters? It would seem to. For instance, with that equation, you would have to be 8th level to make a spell as hard to resist as someone with an 18 int (and few dedicated wizards still only have an 18 int by 8th level). Granted, at 20th level, you top out casting spells as though you had a 30 int (before sl), but then, many dedicated spell casters would surpass that under the normal system (18 +5 from level +5 Inherent +6 item, for a total of 34).