Spell List vs Ritual List

[Traycor]

While I assume that scrying will become a ritual... I wonder if 4E whill dump scrying all together. It is an iconic ability, but it causes all kinds of problems in game play.

Classically in literature/movies, scrying is usually connected to a crystal ball or a magic mirror. Why not just limit scrying to certain magic items and keep it out of the spells lists?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

While I assume that scrying will become a ritual... I wonder if 4E whill dump scrying all together. It is an iconic ability, but it causes all kinds of problems in game play.

Classically in literature/movies, scrying is usually connected to a crystal ball or a magic mirror. Why not just limit scrying to certain magic items and keep it out of the spells lists?

Maybe that will be a "material component" for a ritual?

Knock as a ritual seems like a fair solution to me. Wizards can still have the spell, but the Rogue is just a lot more useful when picking locks then the Wizard, because the Rogue can do it now, while the Wizard has to camp a few hours before the door opens. The Wizard can try to replace the Rogue, but not better then the Fighter (who would bash down the door - and with Admantite Axes in 3.5, this works in most cases anyway. It's just not very subtle or fast... ))

 

[Ahglock]

While I assume that scrying will become a ritual... I wonder if 4E whill dump scrying all together. It is an iconic ability, but it causes all kinds of problems in game play.

Classically in literature/movies, scrying is usually connected to a crystal ball or a magic mirror. Why not just limit scrying to certain magic items and keep it out of the spells lists?

While I've seen material components for lots of scrying its not the only scrying types I've seen, and on top of that most scrying I've seen I wouldn't call a ritual in how the term is sued normally. Throwing some bones in the dirt doesn't seem much like a ritual, though it certainly is more than a standard action spell. I guess you oculd make the spell caster go all a whoopin and a hollerin for an hour then he throws the bones but to me that is really lame, though I guess there are plenty of people who think getting answer is hazy ask again later is so powerful that they need huge casting lengths on these spells.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

It could also simply be that interpreting the signs through the bones takes sometime. Not the actual ritual, but simply deducing what the bones mean, hell you could even say it goes faster by whatever intellectual bonuses other party-members have that is relevant to that ritual.

 

[Ahglock]

Yeah I suppose though it still doesn't really fit my idea of divination from the various sources I read/watch fantasy stuff. Its usually like a total of maybe a minute or two process in what I'm used to.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Yeah, though... You know maybe rituals aren't necessarily that long of a period. Since now that I think about, it is more the fact that rituals need certain circumstances, items, places, etc. that make them more out-of-combat thing.

A ritual could be really fast, but simply be very specific in how it is to be done and thus can't be done all the time or atleast not that often.

 

[Gadget]

So, in some of the early 4E info, we were told that a wizard would not have to choose between Fireball and Phantom Steed. I can only assume that Fireball will be a spell, and Phantom Steed will be a ritual.

So... what current spells (any class) do you think will make the jump to rituals?

As a few posts have already alluded to, it does not seem to be a binary choice between spells and rituals. The above example of Phantom Steed and Fireball was, IMHO, referring to the siloing of abilities between at will, per encounter, and per day buckets. If Fireball is an at will or per encounter power/spell, it will not compete with a per day power/spell such as Phantom Steed for space in the same bucket. Some in this thread seem to be implying that anything that is a utility spell or not direct damage will now be a ritual. I don't think this is the case at all. We know things like Raise Dead, scrying, & magic item creation will be rituals, but I think it is unlikely that all utility spells are pushed into this category. In fact, do we know if rituals fall into the per day bucket or is there some other limitation to keep them in line (i.e. very long casting times)?

As for knock, I've never really seen a problem with it. Maybe I play a different style than others, but if the only reason your rogue can be made useful is picking locks, the poor guy has other problems. As long as it is not an at will ability, I can't really see it overshadowing the Rogue any more than invisibility does.

 

[Spiteful Dwarf]

I really like the idea of summoning becoming a ritual. As another poster already pointed out, it's got a lot of history in fantasy literature. The coolest reveals in Conan stories (the comics, at least) were usually when the cimmerian busted in on the evil wizard/cleric whom was just in the midst of sacrificing whatever sexpot Conan was romancing at the time in order to summon a giant-assed demon in a cloud of eldritch smoke. Cool beans.

Never much cared for 3ed summoning. I've played summoners before and they always seemed like they were sacrificing a lot of other cool arcane powers to manifest celestial badgers and such. You couldn't make a fun summoner without at least a few house rules.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Classically in literature/movies, scrying is usually connected to a crystal ball or a magic mirror. Why not just limit scrying to certain magic items and keep it out of the spells lists?

I think the remote viewers at the CIA and the KGB would disagree with you there.

 

[Lackhand]

I think the remote viewers at the CIA and the KGB would disagree with you there.

Which, neatly, aren't classical.
Besides, they have a neat tech-setup that sort-of-mirrors the crystal ball or mirror. There must be glass or reflections somewhere in it!