Spell points and Healing Spells

[Cabral]

The EQ1 RPG (3E d20) by Sword & Sorcery has a spell point system. The EQ2 RPG spell system (which would be based on 3.5) isn't released yet (apparently things got stalled by Sony's recent combat/spell revamp.

 

[jchristl]

That is why I think that making all spells at minimum caster level as the standard might help.

Sorry I don't follow this. What do you mean? In the slot system, a 13th level Wizard can begin casting 9th level spells. I think those "spells per day" charts are still useful to monitor this kind of thing.

I don't think under a spell point system should a 9th level wizard be allowed to cast anything over 5th level in spells. But let them spend 100% of their points in 1st level spells if they want, instead of just 4.

 

[Cabral]

Just a quick correction: A 13th level wizard can cast 0th - 7th level spells. A wizard begins casting 9th level spells at 17th level. (Quick Formula: (Level+1) divided by 2 = max spell level or spell level *2 -1 = minimum caster level; Sorcerers get bumped back 1 level for 2nd lvl and higher spells)

 

[Victim]

To some extent, this problem already exists. Look at magic item rules. If you want a healing wand, Cure Light Wounds provides the most HP healed/GP spent. That's why many groups will pack several CLW wands to use for downtime healing so clerics can save their spells for the big heals, and other valuable spells.

 

[mirivor]

jchristl: I meant that the system should treat all spells the same way that it treats evocation/damage dealing ones. A Fireball under the UA system is always cast at the 5th caster level. To increase it beyond that takes 1 additional spell point for each level beyond the 5th. So, a magic missile that gives all five missiles would cost 9 spell points.

Use that for all spells. Summon Monster I is cast at 1 spell point and lasts one round, regardless of caster level. If you want it to last longer, pack more points into it. This won't solve all of the problems, but it will certainly put a drain on those spell points.

 

[jchristl]

Just a quick correction: A 13th level wizard can cast 0th - 7th level spells. A wizard begins casting 9th level spells at 17th level. (Quick Formula: (Level+1) divided by 2 = max spell level or spell level *2 -1 = minimum caster level; Sorcerers get bumped back 1 level for 2nd lvl and higher spells)

Ah yes. I think my eyes were crossed when looking at the tables.

To some extent, this problem already exists. Look at magic item rules. If you want a healing wand, Cure Light Wounds provides the most HP healed/GP spent. That's why many groups will pack several CLW wands to use for downtime healing so clerics can save their spells for the big heals, and other valuable spells.

That's true too. With magic items like you point out, that issue is already there.

jchristl: I meant that the system should treat all spells the same way that it treats evocation/damage dealing ones. A Fireball under the UA system is always cast at the 5th caster level. To increase it beyond that takes 1 additional spell point for each level beyond the 5th. So, a magic missile that gives all five missiles would cost 9 spell points.

Use that for all spells. Summon Monster I is cast at 1 spell point and lasts one round, regardless of caster level. If you want it to last longer, pack more points into it. This won't solve all of the problems, but it will certainly put a drain on those spell points.

Yes, keeping those spells like that is better too. The more we talk about this, I think this is the way to go. The UA system feels allot better to me.

Now after reading up on so much of these systems, I've found others: Legends of Excalibur/Samurai, EoM (ack), EverQuest (thanks Cabral), Asgard #3... and there's probably more.

Picking one of these is definitely an easier problem to have

 

[mirivor]

There are other benefits to that sytem as well.

Casters risk having their magic dispelled or overridden if they continuously shirk on spending points to up their caster levels. Remember that caster level affects countering, dispelling, etc.

I have been trying to implement some version of the UA point system for nearly a year and it is difficult to do. I as a DM don't mind a hundred 5D6 fireballs a day, but 2 dozen Meteor Swarms can get a little out o' hand I have this problem even after I really axed some of the higher level stuff; spells such as Imprisonment, Wish, Miracle, Power Word: Kill, True Ressurection, etc. all got banned. Basically anything with a "save or die" effect or something similar.

 

[Darren Ravenshaw]

I also had trouble with creating a spell point system as I saw the un-balance high level casters could cause, by using all their spell points to cast dozens of high levels spells. But then the very system I was trying to get rid of gave me the answer I was looking for: Limit the number of spells per spell level per day the caster can cast. With a scaling limit the caster still has the flexability of the spell point system, but can't just dump all his points into high level spells. And having to keep track of the # of spells per spell level you have used is the same as what Sorcerers have to do with the "Fire & Forget" system anyways.

The following is an example of the limits I came up with for Wizards(I have yet to try this out yet :\ )

Maximum number of spells per spell level per day*
0th/1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th/8th/9th
∞ / 4 /
∞ / 5 /
∞ / 5 / 4 /
∞ / 6 / 5 /
∞ / 6 / 5 / 4 /
∞ / 7 / 6 / 5 /
∞ / 7 / 6 / 5 / 4 /
∞ / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 /
∞ / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 4 /
∞ / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 /
∞ / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 4 /
∞ / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 /
∞ / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 4 /
∞ / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 /
∞ / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 4 /
∞ / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 /
∞ / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 4 /
∞ / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 /
∞ / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 /
∞ / 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 /

* Specialist add 1 to the listed limit of spells per spell level per day, but extra spells must be from specialist school.

 

[DonTadow]

I try not to create anything that someone else already has. Have you tried the Elements of Magic: Revised system. they have a great spell point system and its done wonders for my campaign. If you want to use existing spells with it, double the level of the spell and add 1 for the ammount of points.

I also just wrote up a conversion for the EOM system that does away with spell points all together (as well as any other type of spell tracking.) It ties spell casting to constitution points.

 

[jchristl]

I try not to create anything that someone else already has. Have you tried the Elements of Magic: Revised system. they have a great spell point system and its done wonders for my campaign. If you want to use existing spells with it, double the level of the spell and add 1 for the ammount of points.

Me neither. But perhaps I just don't understand what EoM really is then.

I thought if I wanted to use existing spells, that I'd have to convert the spell from EoM to figure out its points. (IE - Acid Fog. has fog, and uh... vapor. Mist. Is that water, or just mist? Uh... one round to cast. Uh...what'd I forget? )

I don't want to go through all that