Spell Preparation

[CalrinAlshaw]

Ohh, and the spellbooks themselves are non-magical (Unless they have protections and such) and memorizing itself is NON-magical, a wizard can memorize spells in a magic-dead zone. Just can't use them.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[CyberSpyder]

You certainly seem to feel strongly on this issue, Calrin.

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

Well, Wizards are very powerful at these levels. When you can bend reality (Wish) then your as close to a deity as you can get without actually being one yourself.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[Pax]

The real point is, though, for a rediculously high level wizard to rememorize is full repertoire it is...1 hour, thats 2 pages PER SPELL LEVEL (1 for cantrips) to memorize a spell...wow, talk about a fricken speedreader. Jeeezus!

Um, no - one page per level of the spell. Welcome to 3.5e D&D. ^_^

Ok, lets consider a level 20 Wizard, with 19 (minimum Int to memorize all his spells).

Thats 40 Spells, + a bonus spell at 1-4 for 19 Int, 44 spells.
So, 36+32+28+24+20+16+12+8+4+2(each cantrip counts as 1/2 a spell level)= 182 spell levels x2 (for pages) = 364 pages

Half that many - only 182.

And all of them handwritten, on pages that do not have lines pre-printed on them - which generally means a far lower wordcount than your typical modern textbook or reference manual.

Then consider, that a lot of the formulaic expression of a spell is traditionally assumed to include diagrams, and in D&D, a Wizard's spellbook also contains notes and musings regarding each spell. Stuff like, "Must remember not to use Chain Lightning on a group of possible Flesh Golems; the results would be horrendously bad". Notes on a few variations on the spell (i.e., for Cone of Cold ... perhaps "Ferend of the city of Halgeth was reputed to have been able to strike foes at much greater ranges thanthe formulas suggest; I have been unable to duplicate this even using the not inconsiderable metamagic skills at my disposal. Would that Ferend, or his apprentices or even journals, had survived Halgeth's destruction ...").

IOW, not all of it needs to be directly related to the actual casting of the spell.

Just for fun lets say the wizard is memorizing ALL of his spells. And knows EXACTLY which ones he wants for the day.

You play wizards who don't always know which spells s/he wants to prepare each day, long before actually peparing them ...?!?

Now, there is 3600 seconds in an hour, According to the WotC a 20th level wizard can read at a good pace of....*drumroll* approx 9.89 seconds PER page. And have it MEMORIZED! And thats a 20th level Wizard with the MINIMUM stats, how often does THAT happen?

The Wizard need not memorise the exact contents of every page. IT is spell preparation,not spell memorisation anymore. All the spellbook is, is a cookbook that directs the wizard as to how to build the needed energy matrices within herself (or however you want to describe preparing spells for later casting).

Further ... modern type size and wordcount-per-page ... focussed solely on reading to the exclusion of even noticing the outside world ... yeah, I can read - with comprehension and reasonable retention - about one page every ten to fifteen seconds. Without speed-reading.

The sort of text size and wordcount-per-page I'd expect from a handwritten wizard's grimoire? Probably five or six seconds, tops. Eight or nine, say, if I want to really pay attention to what I'm reading.

Which fits rather nicely, in fact, with the time estimate you gave.

There is something here just a BIIIIIIT off if you ask me.

Calrin Alshaw

Yeah. Like the fact that you (based on your initial comment regarding "10 minutes per spell level") apparently consider it appropriate for that Wizard, intead, to spend 1,820 minutes preparing spells for a single day, after spending 480 minutes sleeping/resting, for a total of 2,300 minutes - when a single day contains only 1,440 minutes!!! And that's taking your exact own example wizard, mind.

That's ludicrous - patently absurd, even. Why should it take MORE than a single day, to prepare the number of spells that a spellcaster is supposed to be able to cast every single day ...? Where, exactly, is the logic in that ...?!?

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

First off, didn't notice 3.5E reduced the pages per spell level. I apologise.

Secondly, I already realize an error in my calcs, it's 188 spell levels of pages(forgot the bonus spells for intelligence and each cantrip takes a full page).
I'm basically saying a wizard should spend about 5 minutes per page absorbing, reading, contemplating etc. each pages information. That has brought it down to about 19 seconds per page via the 1 hour of memorization.
About 15 hours and 40 mins(not counting sleep) for a 20th level wizard to memorize that stuff at 5 minutes per page.


Thirdly, sometimes wizards will change their spell selection at the last moment, happens a lot that I've played actually.

As for time reading, I consider a wizard needs to do more than just scan a page, he needs to read each thing carefully, magic tends to be a very precise art. At least I would hope it is considered that, or wheres the prestige in being a powerful wizard?

I only consider it appropriate for a wizard to spend boatloads of time preparing spells when it's a VERY high level wizard with a MASSIVE amount of spells.

Next, You forget one VERY VERY important detail about wizards, they retain spells indefinately (barring stuff happening to them via combat etc.) until they cast them, or voluntarily "drop" a spell to prepare another. So for a wizard, preparation time shouldn't be EVERY day.
For clerics I'd say a good hour of prayer a day is reasonable, and a sorc just gets their spells back after a good period of rest.

Most wizards don't use all of their spells, since they have spells for different situations etc. and not all spells are needed.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[dcollins]

IIRC, the time a wizard needed to memorise her spells was 30 minutes, plus anotehr 30 minutes times the maximum level of spell she wished to memorise ... plus (for each spell) 10 minutes times the level of the spell being prepared.

In actual AD&D 1st Ed. (per DMG p. 40), a wizard needed to rest before gaining spells, just like they do now. Instead of a flat 8 hours, it scaled from between 4 to 12 hours depending on the max spell level. Not much different.

The extra time-consuming part was the quarter-hour per level of spell for the actual memorization part. My calculations are that at 10th level full memorization would take about 10 hours. At 20th level it would take 40 hours. At 29th level (max) it might be 70 hours.

 

[Pax]

First off, didn't notice 3.5E reduced the pages per spell level. I apologise.

Secondly, I already realize an error in my calcs, it's 188 spell levels of pages(forgot the bonus spells for intelligence and each cantrip takes a full page).
I'm basically saying a wizard should spend about 5 minutes per page absorbing, reading, contemplating etc. each pages information.

And I'm explicitly saying that that is ridiculous. That'd be 940 minutes of memorisation ... 15 hours, and 409 minutes. Andit's simply not feasibly possible to do all that in one sitting - when making magic items, for example, you're only allowed to put in an eight-hour day.

So it takes you two days to memorise one days' worth of spells?

And you don't see how broken that is ... ?!?

Thirdly, sometimes wizards will change their spell selection at the last moment, happens a lot that I've played actually.

Out of character, yes. In character, remember that when the Wizard's player says "Oh, and today, I'll be using my 'Dungeon 5' spell list", or even "Hmm, red dragons around, eh? I'll swap all of my Fireballs for Lightning Bolts, then" isn't neccessarily last-minute in character; in character, the Wizard may reach that determination over a fifteen-minute breakfast, while coordinating his preparations with the party's other members (i.e., while the Cleric says "I've got the protection from elements angle covered - I'll just drop my anti-undead spells in favor of anti-fire spells for today").

Next, You forget one VERY VERY important detail about wizards, they retain spells indefinately (barring stuff happening to them via combat etc.) until they cast them, or voluntarily "drop" a spell to prepare another. So for a wizard, preparation time shouldn't be EVERY day.
For clerics I'd say a good hour of prayer a day is reasonable, and a sorc just gets their spells back after a good period of rest.

EVERY encounter is supposed to consume 20% of the party's resources. That means one-fifth of the wizard's spells, hitpoints, and expendable/consumable magic items. The books generally assume you will face from two to four encounters per game day.

Add in daylong effects and utility spells like Leomund's Secure Shelter or Tenser's Floating Disc, and the Wizard can probably count on 50% to 90% of his spells beign used up each day - if the game is played by the assumptions of the rules.

Which, even at a mere 50% consumption, is nearly eight hours of preparation, on top of 8 hours of sleep, every day for the Wizard. On a good day, he's left with time to handle the basic neccessities of life (eating, putting on clothes, minorlittle details like that). And little or no time for actual ADVENTURING.

Most wizards don't use all of their spells, since they have spells for different situations etc. and not all spells are needed.

Calrin Alshaw

See above.

And what about Sorcerors? Clerics? Druids? Paladins? Rangers? Bards? Is it only the Wizard who you're going to whack with this particular "why bother" stick ...?

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

Well, alright, I'll admit, in your world where wizards daily seek out and battle enemies they have learned to prepare spells very fast.

Anyhow, I actually think clerics too should spend an equal amount of time preparing spells (They will actually take longer than wizards due to their larger list of spells.)

Sorcerors are already weak enough as is, same as bards. Besides, they are spontaneous casters. Druids I think should be in the same boat as wizards/clerics. Same as Rangers and Paladins, but the amount they can cast is so small that it doesn't matter much for them.

Anyhow, the ONLY reason that I think Wizards should be singularly whacked with this stuff, is because wizards are the only "preparation time" class that doesn't have to pray every day, Clerics I'm pretty sure HAVE to pray EVERY day. Whereas Wizards just kinda keep all their spells floating around in their heads until they use or lose it.

Calrin Alshaw

Calrin Alshaw

 

[KerlanRayne]

Any high level wizard who knows anything will have a Bocob's Blessed Book. That reduces the number of pages significantly.

KerlanRayne

 

[Deadguy]

I'd just like to remind Calrin that in 3.X Wizards (and Clerics and Druids and anyone else who's not a spontaneous caster) does not memorise any spells! They prepare them in advance, which means casting most of the spell and leaving it hanging (very Zelazney). so perhaps the reason that the 20th level Wizard is so quick is that he's, like, good at magic now, and can manage to go through those ritual stages swiftly.

But the real reason is simply that it's BORING for the players if every preparation caster has to stop the game for hours and hours (potentially days) whilst they, in character, do their stuff! This is an adventuring game, so let's not getted bogged down in pettifogging minutiae!

Ahem! Just one of those things that annoys me the other way...