D&D 5E Spell save mechanic for grappling attacks

[John Brebeuf]

but your argument for removing athletics was that grappling was not really a matter of skill

But that wasn't my argument. If you reread the quote from Dungeon Grappling that I provided, it doesn't by any means ignore the role that skill plays in grappling; it simply insists that strength is the primary factor, which nonetheless may also be enhanced by skill. What I'm suggesting is that the fighter's training in strength-based endeavors (as indicated by the rules giving fighters proficiency in Strength saving throws) is what gives them the advantage in grappling over other classes. Thus it's appropriate to have the grappling resolution mechanic bear that out.

 

[jaelis]

So bottom line, is that you feel that Str saving throw training more accurately reflects grappling ability than Athletics training, or that you feel barbarians, fighters, monks and rangers ought to be better at grappling than other classes?

 

[John Brebeuf]

So bottom line, is that you feel that Str saving throw training more accurately reflects grappling ability than Athletics training, or that you feel barbarians, fighters, monks and rangers ought to be better at grappling than other classes?

The one doesn't exclude the other. In fact, I'd argue that they amount to the same thing, but this equivalence obscured by your reference to 'Str saving throw training,' which is misleading. Obviously they're not training to make saving throws; rather, it's their training in their class-specific abilities (including, I'm suggesting, grappling) that gives them an edge in Str-based saving throws, and thus that's an appropriate mechanic to use for grappling resolution.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Note that paladins will still get an edge - they'll be applying their charisma bonus to most saves.

Good things about this rule:
It prevents people from stacking skill bonuses to make monster grapplers.
It makes str save proficiency slightly better.

Bad things about this rule:
It makes dex-based characters way, way more subsceptible to being permanently grappled, which really sucks.
It stops a small number of people from choosing whether they are any good at defending against a grapple.

All up - revert the bit about only being able to use strength to break free in subsequent rounds and it's an improvement over the existing rules.

 

[jaelis]

Well, it feels to me like it is giving certain classes a significant boost based on an unrelated decision by the designers about who get Str saves. And I don't really like the fact that it severely limits your character options in that regard.

I do like the DC thing, and making it a simple Str or Dex saves seems fine. (I agree I would keep the Dex option.) But I'd either keep the "attacking" proficiency based on Athletics, or else make up a pseudo-weapon proficiency for it that you get with martial weapon training (plus monks).

The weapon thing might be nice because it would avoid the problem with expertise being too strong.

 

[Tormyr]

I should probably point out that while I am all for taking half of the rolling out by having the monster take 10, I favor keeping the existing rules for using Strength (Athletics) for attempting and avoiding the grapple and Dexterity Acrobatics for avoiding the grapple.