Spell system based off of Book of Nine Swords - now with first revision

[Blue Sky]

I like the class (especially the lowered CL each time they re-up their spells), but there's still one big problem with the spell list that I'm seeing. 0-level spells. They just don't make sense for the system as re-designed. The only reason to have 0-level spells was to allow low level spellcasters the ability to cast more but less powerful spells, quantity vs. quality.

Oh, and on another note, you need to make sure nobody can get below CL 1, or it just doesn't make sense. You might also still want to adopt the Crusader mechanic for prepared spells (or not).

Also, you need to clarify if spells are "readied" or "prepared". You're using both terms, though at least not in the same paragraphs.

I don't like the Crusader mechanic for prepared spells. After 2-3 rounds you have all your spells up, and it just seems kinda sucky to make someone wait. Also, the Crusader is a full BAB class, with good HP, and a lot of special abilities, so if they don't have the manuever they're looking for, they can still do other cool stuff.

On another note, I need a way to differentiate between the Prayers in a book, and the Prayers that a cleric knows. Right now I'm thinking Litanies, Supplications, or Benedictions for spells known. Cheiro, you're a priest, what kind of cool, maybe slightly obscure names can you think of?

 

[Kmart Kommando]

I like the new revision, I think I'm going to yoink it and see what my group thinks.

Maybe make the -1 CL when recovering spells should be something like -1d4 or -1d6. They'll never know quite when they're gonna burn themselves out, so they'll be more cautious in lobbing spells.
I like the reading from a book spells idea, but maybe they should be fullround actions that provoke, and maybe a bit less powerful than standard spells, or cost Action Points or XP as a cost for the flexibility. Or maybe all 0-level spells could be 'cast from a book' fullround actions.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

I went with your idea, and started on a Sorceror. Though I did mix in a bit of warlock.
I didn't make it a PDF though.

Didn't try my hand at the spells yet, but I added in an arcane version of Psionic Focus, and a small mana pool for augmenting and maintaining spells. Everyone feel free to run with this as well.

Good job Blue Sky

 

[airwalkrr]

I like the revision a lot. Many good ideas coming out of this. I plan to stay tuned to this thread.

I have a few thoughts, but as yet I have not completely wrapped my head around this. This idea changes the game so drastically that I am not sure it will even quite be D&D anymore. But I'm working on setting such biases aside because this system is really cool. I think it is quite possibly the only good thing to come of the BoNS so far (I don't really like it, but I do like this idea).

I think one thing to watch out for is the fact that spellcasters under this system will have a tendency to use their highest level spells first in every combat. IMHO, there needs to be something to persuade the characters to rest eventually and not to simply recharge themselves after every fight. I am led to believe such a system would wind up tedious. Every dungeon would be: room 1, attack, kill, meditate and recharge; room 2, attack, kill, meditate and recharge; repeat ad nauseum. I encountered this problem in the campaign I once ran using recharge magic (see Unearthed Arcana), and it was a disaster quite frankly. The only combats that even remotely challenged the PCs were the EL = level +2 or higher ones, i.e. the ones that were supposed to threaten to kill at least one character. (Incidentally, this is my problem with the BoNS; it means that each fight will start with a character using his highest powered manuevers, making mook or minion fights completely pointless whereas in traditional D&D they force the party to wisely ration their resources).

Think about it this way. A 13th level party will have the mage open every battle with prismatic spray or [insert favorite blasting 7th-level spell here). If you use the BoNS, then your fighting classes will not be ecclipsed because they likely have manuevers as well. But if you don't, the fighting classes will be outdone all the time (another problem with the recharge magic system). But let's assume you do use the BoNS. Is it really going to be good for the system to encourage this type of play? To me, it is monotonous (this is exactly what we decided after a good run with the recharge magic system). High-level spells are cast so often that they become trite and not-so-special.

I think this system would work GREAT for a campaign that focused solely on climactic battles and glossed over insignificant ones. But most D&D campaigns (IME) are not structured that way. They rely upon the dungeon to slowly divest the PCs of their resources so that the villain at the end has the advantage of being fully prepared while the PCs are on their last threads. This can make a 10th level wizard a challenging fight for a party of four 10th-level characters who are low on spells and hp. Under this system, the wizard would need to be much more powerful to challenge the PCs. Not that this is a problem. I am simply pointing out some of the changes that will be necessary in this system.

Along those lines, let me offer another example, a possible loophole to the system as you have designed it, Blue Sky. All wizards are going to want rope trick once they reach 3rd level. At the end of each fight, to ensure another encounter doesn't come after them before they are done meditating. This essentially guarantees that each encounter happens while the party is fully refreshed. Sure, the DM could resort to gathering his baddies around the rope trick to ambush the PCs when they come out, but that requires a certain level of metagaming on the DM's party. It is also yet another thing that would become trite with the system.

One final issue that might be worth noting is the use of consumable items such as potions, scrolls, wands, and staves. I believe these items would become virtually worthless under this system. Some may not care while others do. Just something to think about. Maybe there is a way to make them useful (e.g. potions always have maximum effect? wands grant unlimited uses of a spell? just some ideas).

Anyway, I still support this idea so don't take my criticisms as harsh discouragement. I really do think this idea is awesome and want to see it flourish. But these are things that should probably be considered.

Allow me to offer a suggestion. Perhaps the caster level penalty should not be so simple to remove. Maybe the incentive for resting for the night should be to remove the caster level penalty. That would retain the need to strategically manage your resources while still allowing a character to regain spells if needed.

 

[Morgenstern]

I like the class (especially the lowered CL each time they re-up their spells), but there's still one big problem with the spell list that I'm seeing. 0-level spells. They just don't make sense for the system as re-designed. The only reason to have 0-level spells was to allow low level spellcasters the ability to cast more but less powerful spells, quantity vs. quality.

Make them into stances - while in the stance you can cast them over and over again. Heck, you might group 2-4 together under those conditions to make a single stance.

 

[Blue Sky]

Along those lines, let me offer another example, a possible loophole to the system as you have designed it, Blue Sky. All wizards are going to want rope trick once they reach 3rd level. At the end of each fight, to ensure another encounter doesn't come after them before they are done meditating. This essentially guarantees that each encounter happens while the party is fully refreshed. Sure, the DM could resort to gathering his baddies around the rope trick to ambush the PCs when they come out, but that requires a certain level of metagaming on the DM's party. It is also yet another thing that would become trite with the system.

You have a lot of good points, but there was one I wanted to respond to specifically.

The note about the rope trick is exactly the kind of situation I'm trying to prevent by changing the spell system. All too often, especially in low-level dungeon adventures, once the cleric or wizard is out of spells, the party stops to rest. The dungeon goes on "pause" while the intrepid adventurers sit back, light a fire, and do whatever it is that adventurers do in those empty dungeon rooms while waiting for the next day. That breaks suspension of disbelief for me, both as a player and as a DM.

Thanks for the suggestions, and keep them coming. Even if I don't take your suggestions to heart, they still make me examine facets of the changes I may not have considered before.

My co-rules creater (and more importantly, the guy that's cool enough to let me try out a new magic system in his game), is reviewing the final draft of the rules now. Once we get it cleared, I'll post it, and start on the next class I have to change: the Druid.

 

[nobodez]

Blue Sky, thank you for this great class and allowing us the ability to help you in it's design. I do hope it works, and I agree that the stop and go adventuring of low level is just too much.

<threadjack>
Oh, and someone else said something about martial adepts from the ToB outshining or at least equalling Mages and Priests at high level. Thank Ghod! That's one of the things I hate about high level melee and ranged (i.e. non-spellcaster) combatants is that while they can do a lot of damage with their attacks, it's only if they hit (a very dicey proposition), mainly because high level melee requires Power Attack for damage, and that lower the attack. With ToB martial adepts, high level melee can finally be close to even with high level spellcasters.
</threadjack>

 

[Kmart Kommando]

One thing about the "I'm gonna throw Prismatic Spray the first round of every combat" notion is that the spells would be toned down a bit. BoNS does a pretty good job of this, most of the maneuvers are single target, and many require attack rolls and saves. Maybe the new Prismatic Spray is a cone that you make a ranged touch attack against each target in the area, then go as normal from there. Even touch attacks aren't guaranteed, and they still get a save. Maybe your staple Magic Missile only makes 1d4+2 hits for 1d4+1 damage per hit. Maybe rope trick is one of the spells that has duration 1 minute. It is Rope Trick, and not Rope Hotel, after all.

Oh, and limited spells is going to make scrolls and potions more valuable, because they can't get every spell they might want all the time.

Or, how about wands use a readied spell of a certain level or higher and turn it into the spell stored in the wand when activated? No need to track charges, and resources are used up anyway. Make them x/day use items, that draw on your own magical power. UMD would have to be rethought though, maybe use hit points instead with UMD.

 

[nobodez]

Just looked over at another thread, and I've yoinked it's idea.

Instead of unlimited healing, have unlimited conversion from lethal to nonlethal damage. That way you still have some downtime, as well as quick "healing".

 

[Engilbrand]

What about doing healing like the Dragon Shaman? Come up with a formula. The cleric can heal a number of spell points equal to his level times his Wisdom bonus. In the same way that Psion power points take off quickly, the cleric would have a lot of healing he could do. 20th level, a 30 for Wisdom. He could heal 200 hit points per day. That seems a little low. Level times actual Wisdom? A first level cleric could heal about 15 or 16 points. A 20th level could heal 600 in one day. I'm sure that there's a happy medium in there somewhere. You would then get rid of the spell and potions. It would need to be a divine caster. Just a thought.