Spelljammer Spelljammer in D&D 5e Speculation: How Will the Setting Be Changed?

[Parmandur]

@doctorbadwolf another way of looking at it: Spelljammer and Planescape participate in the same broader cosmos, but so does Eberron and the Forgotten Realms. That doesn't mean it would be helpful to have a 30 page section on the Forgotten Realms deities in the Eberrron book, or an extended Sharn gazeteer in a Forgotten Realms book that doesn't have any other Eberron information. That's just sloppy organization.

 

[TwoSix]

I think what you are missing here is that both Spelljammer and Planescape are more than means to an end: Sigil and the Great Wheel is a location for Adventure in itself, as is Wildspqce. The connective issue is tertiary.

I think the difference of opinion here is that a lot of people view the connective aspect as the primary aspect of the two settings, not secondary or tertiary.

I personally view stuff like the Rock of Bral or the Elven Navy as being not particularly defining of Spelljammer, the important part of Spelljammer has always been "you can get on a flying ship and go from Toril to Krynn".

I also think Sigil and the factions and such are important for Planescape, but that's because I enjoyed them; I know several players who were only concerned with using the setting to get from one plane to another.

I certainly can see combining the two settings and focusing on their shared purpose as the connective tissue between the more strongly defined established settings.

 

[Parmandur]

I think the difference of opinion here is that a lot of people view the connective aspect as the primary aspect of the two settings, not secondary or tertiary.

I personally view stuff like the Rock of Bral or the Elven Navy as being not particularly defining of Spelljammer, the important part of Spelljammer has always been "you can get on a flying ship and go from Toril to Krynn".

I also think Sigil and the factions and such are important for Planescape, but that's because I enjoyed them; I know several players who were only concerned with using the setting to get from one plane to another.

I certainly can see combining the two settings and focusing on their shared purpose as the connective tissue between the more strongly defined established settings.

I do think that is the defining difference, yes. But other than the very very broad concept of "this can connect to standard D&D worlds", there is no overlap: there are no PC options, locations, or monsters in common. Spelljamming through Wildspace cover literally different territory than walking through a portal to a magical pocket dimension that also connects to Heaven and Hell.

If the Settings aren't for their own sake as sufficient end, they are pointless as means, and the DMG is sufficient for providing connecting material. Planescape needs to stand on it's own as a Sigil campaign base, and Spelljammer needs to be able to stand On it's own as a Wildspqce campaign base, or there is no point to the exercise.

 

[TwoSix]

If the Settings aren't for their own sake as sufficient end, they are pointless as means, and the DMG is sufficient for providing connecting material. Planescape needs to stand on it's own as a Sigil campaign base, and Spelljammer needs to be able to stand On it's own as a Wildspqce campaign base, or there is no point to the exercise.

I just don't think I agree that they have to be separate entities. I mean, if Sigil becomes a torus-shaped starport in the center of the Astral Sea, with ships sailing through color pools to various locations on the Prime and outer planes, with neogi and beholders joining the Doomguard, that's certainly an exercise with a point. I'm not saying it's the correct approach, but it is a feasible one.

Even absent a complete merge, I think the idea of using the Astral as the method of travelling between spots both intra-plane (as in Spelljammer) and inter-plane (as in Planescape) works well within the 5e cosmology as currently defined, and would suggest at least a loose connection between the two settings.

 

[overgeeked]

I think the difference of opinion here is that a lot of people view the connective aspect as the primary aspect of the two settings, not secondary or tertiary.

I personally view stuff like the Rock of Bral or the Elven Navy as being not particularly defining of Spelljammer, the important part of Spelljammer has always been "you can get on a flying ship and go from Toril to Krynn".

I also think Sigil and the factions and such are important for Planescape, but that's because I enjoyed them; I know several players who were only concerned with using the setting to get from one plane to another.

I certainly can see combining the two settings and focusing on their shared purpose as the connective tissue between the more strongly defined established settings.

Right. Some view both Spelljammer and Planescape as simply a means of conveyance between other, different settings, whereas some view both of these as settings unto themselves. I've always been more interested in Spelljammer as a setting unto itself, whereas, being less of a fan of Planescape, I view it as simply a means of conveyance. For me, the fun of Spelljammer was being out there, not hopping between Kyrnn and Greyhawk...doing the things you could only do in Spelljammer.

 

[TwoSix]

Right. Some view both Spelljammer and Planescape as simply a means of conveyance between other, different settings, whereas some view both of these as settings unto themselves. I've always been more interested in Spelljammer as a setting unto itself, whereas, being less of a fan of Planescape, I view it as simply a means of conveyance. For me, the fun of Spelljammer was being out there, not hopping between Kyrnn and Greyhawk...doing the things you could only do in Spelljammer.

Absolutely. I personally fall into the opposite camp, as I never had a ton of interest in Spelljammer, but I view Sigil and the factions as being a setting in and of itself. And I'm sure there are quite a few players who really like both settings.

My primary argument would be that we can't rule too much out at this point; there are several valid approaches WotC might take to the setting. I simply don't think either Spelljammer or Planescape have so much intrinsic definition that we can rule out WotC doing a Ravenloft-level (or even more intensive) reimagining.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Does "honey sriracha aioli" sound better?

I think this would be more like Mayonnaise and Honey.

Back in the day, while we did do a little traveling from setting to setting, our Spelljammer adventures generally all took place in space itself, whether it was fighting other ships, carousing at the Rock of Braal, or seeking out the eponymous Spelljammer itself. It very much has its own flavor and feel. But of course, that probably varied from gaming group to gaming group.

I do think that the connective part is important. As I've said before, the settings of Spelljammer or Planescape need places for people to go. And as Wizards adds more and more settings, they're going to want to avoid the market-fracturing of 2e and establishing strong ties between them all is one way to try to do that.

I think the difference of opinion here is that a lot of people view the connective aspect as the primary aspect of the two settings, not secondary or tertiary.

I personally view stuff like the Rock of Bral or the Elven Navy as being not particularly defining of Spelljammer, the important part of Spelljammer has always been "you can get on a flying ship and go from Toril to Krynn".

I also think Sigil and the factions and such are important for Planescape, but that's because I enjoyed them; I know several players who were only concerned with using the setting to get from one plane to another.

I certainly can see combining the two settings and focusing on their shared purpose as the connective tissue between the more strongly defined established settings.

 

[Bacon Bits]

But I love the idea of planejammer…..

So do I. I've never cared for the actual spacefaring aspect. I'd much rather spelljammers be necessary for timely travel across the astral sea. I'm fine with going to the moons of the setting, but I'd much rather travel to other settings take place by traversal to the astral sea. Especially given the 4e cosmology where all the planes are just aspects of the astral sea or elemental chaos carved out by deities or powers.

I think planar travel is absurdly boring in D&D, because you just use plane shift or gate and boom you're basically there, and those are your only options outside of "you find a portal". Super boring, gated behind spellcasters, just not interesting. I think spelljamming is way more interesting. Now it's difficult to even get to the afterlife. You've got to build or acquire a craft to just to get to the other planes, and travel is suddenly not instantaneous and solved directly from the spellcaster's character sheet. It's very thematic and unique to D&D, too. You could easily have an adventure like The Odyssey or Jason and the Argonauts in the astral sea, with small islands in the astral sea created by being living there. Or a pirate campaign inspired by One Piece or something. Or inspired by Elric. The trappings of Spelljammer always felt like they push you away from doing that.

The thing I don't like about Spelljammer is probably what most people do: the space opera aspect. Everyone I remember wanting to play it in the 90s wanted to play Star Wars in D&D or Star Trek in D&D or RIFTS in D&D. None of those appealed to me; I'd rather just play dedicated systems for those settings. The interstellar travel itself isn't interesting to me. The jargon built around Spelljammer was a big turn off to me, as well. I just don't find it interesting to invent brand new terms when seafaring ones basically already work. I also don't really care for Aristotelian physics. I wouldn't miss the aspect where spelljamming helms blocked spellcasting. I'd rather they have a key and work more like a ship's helm than something you wear. Frankly, I always associated the name with windjammers, not "jam" as in "block" or "jam" as in "shove spells into". I also never really cared for the creatures unique to Spelljammer, so if I use the material I'm not that interested in those. Why, yes, I have often said that I don't like Spelljammer, why do you ask?

I just don't think it's interesting to travel from Oerth to Krynn to Toril, etc. Most of the published settings that are actually fleshed out are little more than palette swaps, so it just never feels necessary to travel to another setting that's 95% identical.

 

[Parmandur]

I just don't think I agree that they have to be separate entities. I mean, if Sigil becomes a torus-shaped starport in the center of the Astral Sea, with ships sailing through color pools to various locations on the Prime and outer planes, with neogi and beholders joining the Doomguard, that's certainly an exercise with a point. I'm not saying it's the correct approach, but it is a feasible one.

Even absent a complete merge, I think the idea of using the Astral as the method of travelling between spots both intra-plane (as in Spelljammer) and inter-plane (as in Planescape) works well within the 5e cosmology as currently defined, and would suggest at least a loose connection between the two settings.

I mean, they don't have to be: none of this is neccessary in any way. But they have different gebre territory to cover, so it would make far more sense as two books.

 

[Parmandur]

Absolutely. I personally fall into the opposite camp, as I never had a ton of interest in Spelljammer, but I view Sigil and the factions as being a setting in and of itself. And I'm sure there are quite a few players who really like both settings.

My primary argument would be that we can't rule too much out at this point; there are several valid approaches WotC might take to the setting. I simply don't think either Spelljammer or Planescape have so much intrinsic definition that we can rule out WotC doing a Ravenloft-level (or even more intensive) reimagining.

Oh, I absolutely expect reimaginging for both Settings, gladly too: just not admixture of two seperate sets of Genre tropes.

We can rule out thst they are merging them for the simple reason that they have been playtesting and teasing Spelljammer material, but not Planescape material: they are seperate in treatment still. They have also maintained the distinction of Spelljammer as Prime Material versus Planescape in various contexts over the hears of 5E.