Spelljammer...just wow

[Celebrim]

Spelljammer stuff written by the late Nigel Findley = disturbingly awesome. *raises a glass to the man*

However a lot of SJ stuff struck me as silly, be it the space hamsters, british hippo men, etc. I'll happily take the Mercane, Neogi slavers, other cool stuff and leave the goofy material untouched.

I'm not familiar enough with the SJ material to second that, but based on the problems with quality control TSR was having at the time I'd easily believe that the other big problem with SJ was that the quality was all over the board. I'd not be surprised to find at the core some very well presented ideas, swamped beneath a flood of silliness.

 

[Shemeska]

Here's the other "meh" about SJ: if the Forgotten Realms is an alternate material plane from Greyhawk, why can you just fly to it?

Because they weren't alternate material planes. Toril, Oerth, Krynn, Athas, Ortho, Threnody, Falx, etc were all part of the same prime material plane. The prime wasn't just a single planet and nothing else, it was just as infinite as the other planes, dotted with innumerable other worlds. SJ just tried to flesh out the contents of that void between worlds. Like how they defined it or not*, it didn't come off as an uninspiring, willing campaign limitation like assuming the prime material is a single world with nothing out there at all.

*(I tend to gloss over the phlogiston, but still use the 'sphere' terminology to describe each world/solar system)

I loathe than some 3e material calls different worlds on the prime not different worlds, but different "material planes". Thankfully that's not a blanket thing in 3e, and we've increasingly seen them called worlds or planets, and references to other worlds out there in the void sharing the same prime.

 

[Tolen Mar]

Eberron is showing up in Forgotten Realms stuff?

Well, more like FR and Eberron stats have been added to a lot of other books they came out with (I think the monster books have been the biggest culprit). Of course, they could have stopped this, I haven't bought or even looked at very many 3.x books in the past six months or so.

 

[Shemeska]

The module where a giff (big hippo man) escapes orcs by hiding under a bed was a low moment.

Wow, that's almost as bad as the beer drinking texan Solar in Throne of Bloodstone. *shiver*

 

[Razz]

But I didn't like it when SJ material showed up in FR, GH, or DL material. (And contrary to some claims, it showed up a lot during the timeframe hat SJ was being meaningfully supported by TSR.)

The difference is that, if I'm playing SJ, I'm intrinsically accepted the premise that the crystal spheres hold anything that I want them to hold. The idea of Toril, Oerth, and Krynn being in the crystal spheres is right in line with the premise of the setting. If I don't like it for some reason, I can always change it -- but the suggestion doesn't offend my sensibilities.

On the other hand, if I'm playing FR, GH, or DL I haven't accepted the premise that these worlds are located inside of crystal spheres and are routinely visited by spelljamming craft. In fact, I may have a long-running campaign where this is intrinsically NOT the case. So having the SJ references crop up in those products feels like I'm getting something crammed down my throat.

See, unfortunately, it's all or nothing.

For those that wanted FR to be in their Spelljammer settting (or vice versa), the Spelljammer book Realmspace came in handy. Not so the other way around. You can't have one setting expanding another setting without the other setting giving some sort of explanation for it.

And, seriously, did it REALLY hurt people's campaign when they saw a few blurbs that hardly took up any space on their page that mentioned a spelljammer port here or a visit from neogi in this part of Faerun there? If it did, I feel bad for those types. I can understand if you're reading a Forgotten Realms book and suddenly a WHOLE chapter about Spelljamming material got thrown in there, but I am sure you can count without using all your fingers the number of times spelljamming was mentioned in 2E products for each setting.

And it's only been mentioned once in a 3E product. Let's quote it:

Page 230, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3E

The last and most fantasic of the lands beyond Faerun is so close that every Faerunian has seen it from afar. Above the sky lies a realm of incredible expanse, the so-called Sea of Night, where rivers of stars and worlds both strange and wonderful shimmer like silver fire in the dark.

Stories abound of wizards who seek to climb above the sky and explore its dark waters, of princes ruling castles of argent light, and crystal elf-ships that rise gleaming from the western sears into oceans vaster and more wondrous still when twilight falls over the face of Toril. In a land where wizards make castles fly and clerics bring forth godly miracles, the legendary isles and realms of the night sky are home to the wildest flights of fancy and strangest dreams of all.

Did that tiny section of a 320 page book, an obvious (and much appreciated) tribute to the now-dead Spelljammer setting, really ruin someone's Forgotten Realms game? I think not.

Here's my argument: there is an outer space in the Realms. It exists officially. Because it exists officially, it officially has some spelljamming within its universe (crystal sphere). I like acknowledgement in D&D. Don't tell me there's spelljamming ships in Forgotten Realms and then tell me in a Forgotten Realms book that the "night sky" is a magical illusion created by Mystra to make things look far away and real. (which I am so glad it didn't.)

And for those that don't like any of it...simply ignore it.

The argument goes for any setting, not just the Realms, of course. Was using FR as an example.

 

[Razz]

Because they weren't alternate material planes. Toril, Oerth, Krynn, Athas, Ortho, Threnody, Falx, etc were all part of the same prime material plane. The prime wasn't just a single planet and nothing else, it was just as infinite as the other planes, dotted with innumerable other worlds. SJ just tried to flesh out the contents of that void between worlds. Like how they defined it or not*, it didn't come off as an uninspiring, willing campaign limitation like assuming the prime material is a single world with nothing out there at all.

*(I tend to gloss over the phlogiston, but still use the 'sphere' terminology to describe each world/solar system)

I loathe than some 3e material calls different worlds on the prime not different worlds, but different "material planes". Thankfully that's not a blanket thing in 3e, and we've increasingly seen them called worlds or planets, and references to other worlds out there in the void sharing the same prime.

Definitely true, there's a passage in FR Serpent Kingdoms that mentions a ruler in one of nations in the Chult regions (can't remember who or where) that mentions the ruler having once been an adventurer and had angered black dragons from another world where black dragons ruled over all. And one black dragon is hunting him down, currently, from that world.

And now I have to go find it cause I'd really like to know who and where myself.

 

[Razz]

Ok, found it, it's page 103 in Serpent Kingdoms. It talks about the Prince Royal of Lapaliiya, Shaliim, and how he went adventuring with Waterdhavian "wildblades". (a reference to adventuring travelers in "wildspace"?) During one of their stops via a portal they raided the hoard of aged elder black dragons who ruled a kingdom of humans and dwarves on this other world, then left.

Then it goes on to say later that some of the black dragons found him and have come to Toril to hunt him down.

 

[-SIN-]

I liked SJ. I thought it was a break away from the norm, as at the time 'The Big Three' were and are NOT lightyears apart. All three settings supply players with very similar stuff from monsters to magic items, even the scenery is similar. A character from Greyhawk wouldn't look overly out of place in DL or FR. I found SJ as an escape from escapism.

People complain about it's goofiness, but I found it fun. Giff's weren't even the brunt of our jokes - we were about 12 at the time and found the Neogi hilarious...

DM: "You are confronted by what looks to be a neogi. What do you do?....."

All of us: "Wax on, Wax off!"


I must add, we never used SJ as a campaign setting - We had characters in the FR setting who discovered a SJ'er and used it every now and then (when an adventure petered-out, were bored or had little or no fresh material.)

But if it was re-vamped? I'd buy it!

 

[Alzrius]

I really like Spelljammer.

Most of the major points as to why it didn't do very well have already been covered, but they never bothered me much.

Personally, I liked the way it tied the campaign settings together. It helped to define the meta-setting that was the entire multiverse of D&D, which seemed really great; moreso than inventing a brand new world and then needing to flesh it all out, anyway.

That said, I think that rather than fans of the "Big Three" resenting having the campaigns tied together, I think part of the poor reaction (overall) to SJ was that fans of the setting were turned off by how much it seemed to rely on the Big Three. Basically, if you didn't have GH, FR, and DL materials, you were somewhat handicapped with the setting. It was pretty clear that the "Radiant Triangle" (as it called the phlogiston trade paths between Greyspace, Realmspace, and Krynnspace) was the heart of Known Space. So if your party wanted to hang out in Greyspace, and decided to touch down on Oerth, well then, you better have those GH supplements on hand.

The backdrop of the other campaigns should have been kept as a secondary focus, the way Planescape did; as it is, I think PS learned from a lot of SJ's mistakes. Sigil was a lot more cohesive than the Rock of Bral (particularly since the Rock could only be in one sphere, and you were constantly journeying to new ones), the monsters were more alien and less weird, and the setting just had its own feel. SJ didn't have those things...and that was a loss that it never truly overcame.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Well, more like FR and Eberron stats have been added to a lot of other books they came out with (I think the monster books have been the biggest culprit). Of course, they could have stopped this, I haven't bought or even looked at very many 3.x books in the past six months or so.

A paragraph of "how to use this material in Campaign Setting X" isn't really comparable to "surprise! The lich's treasure is ... THIS SHINY NEW SPELLJAMMER!"