D&D 5E Spells and Extra Attack Balance

[Dragongrief]

Possibly the existence of classless RPGs?

I don't mean to be mean, but if you want a classless RPG, why not play a classless RPG? For example, GURPS, Savage Worlds, FATE.

Or perhaps a low-number-of-classes system. For example, Numenera/Cypher.

I've played several of them, but the D&D mechanics fit the flavor of the game my group likes, and I don't need to teach them something new. L5R, 7th Sea, GURPS, FATE - all good systems, but 5e is better suited for us (have seen, but haven't played Numanera).

Also, I like messing with systems. I did a similar breakdown with 3.X, though I'm not planning to go quite as far with this one.

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[Xeviat]

My suggestion is to balance your options based around the way multiclassing works. One option should be worth about as much as a single class level. You can have trees for these abilities so people can't skip everything and then grab an awesome level 20 ability (like the barbarian's).

Each spell level of casting is a full ability. Extra attack is a full ability. And others.

Take a look at d20 Modern for ideas.

But for classless systems more like D&D, take a look at Mutants and Masterminds. it's based around the 3rd Edition SRD, and can easily be fudged to be a fantasy medieval game.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

2) The design challenge is fun.

Yeah, I'm with you on that one. Tweaking is fun, is't it.

I just wanted to make sure you knew those other games existed. I posted a similar comment a few years ago on another site, and the response was," there are class-less RPGs?"

 

[Tony Vargas]

Extra-attacking weapon-users & SA rogues theoretically 'balance' with spellcasting cantrip-user over a 6-8 encounter day. Making extra attack more generally available would mean that day length would no longer make much of a difference to class balance (well, there are no classes, so intraparty balance, then). You'll still have to oversee the balance of your game, both balancing challenges and balancing the PCs amongst themselves.

Do you really expect there to be non-casters in a variant that freely mixes full-casting and full extra-attacking progressions, anyway?

 

[Dragongrief]

Do you really expect there to be non-casters in a variant that freely mixes full-casting and full extra-attacking progressions, anyway?

Not really. I expect that most would end up in the 1/3 to 1/2 caster range if the plan to also focus on weapon combat.

Even if they wanted to go full caster and attacks, something would be delayed. They wouldn't, for example, have enough points to gain both a second attack and third level spells at 5th level. One would have to wait until 6th.

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[Yunru]

Looking at classes in terms of features-per-level, and counting a spellcaster level as a feature, martial classes get 2 per level (unless it's a biggy like Action Surge), while spellcasters get 3.

It's a pretty consistent pattern, so maybe 3 "Feature Points" per level?

That way a player can go wherever they want feature-wise (provided they meet the prerequisite), but can't get, say, full caster and full martial unless they sacrifice all other features.
I'd also recommend only being able to advance one level of a feature tree at a time, least you get players who put all three points straight into Spellcaster levels (resulting in a 1.5 spell level improvement per level).

 

[Xeviat]

Do you really expect there to be non-casters in a variant that freely mixes full-casting and full extra-attacking progressions, anyway?

If you consider the Warlock to be a full caster, then we already have a class with 1d10+abilityx4 attacks at 17th level. A Blade Warlock at 12th level has 2d6+ability+abilityx2 attacks, which is on par with a Paladin's at-will and a fighter's at-will. It's probably possible to balance. A full caster with full fighter or rogue attack progression would likely be using most of their low level spells for utility (or smiting) since they wouldn't be better than their base attacks.

 

[Blue]

Give both - they will not be using both the same round.

This bothers me with all of the cleric domains that give extra damage to cantrip or melee - all they are doing is locking you into one play style - they won't come up at the same time (except the corner case of the two SCAG cantrips).