Spells per encounter instead of per day??

[Phoenix8008]

Thinking about a new house rule to get around the low level symptom of having one or two fights in a dungeon then going back to rest so that spells can be regained. It breaks the flavor and realism for me that the party has to go rest every few hours because the cleric or mage (or both) have used up their spells for the day.

Due to this, I've thought up a possible new spell system I'm considering trying out and wanted some feedback on what others think or if anyone else has tried something similar.

My idea is based on the maneuver system in the Book of Nine Swords. I want spellcasters to get a certain number of uses PER ENCOUNTER that will refresh once they have a few minutes downtime.

So here is the core of it: Spellcasters would each get a number of spellpoints equal to twice their caster level plus the bonus from their primary ability score. Each spell would cost one spellpoint per level of the spell.

So a 1st level wizard with 16 INT would have [2(level 1 x 2) + 3(Int bonus)] = 5 spell points per encounter. So he could use 5 1st level spells each encounter. At 3rd level he'd have 6+3= 9 spell points, but 2nd level spells would each use up 2 spellpoints. At 20th level, a wizard could have 40+10=50 spell points per encounter but with access to 9th level spells they would burn through them quick if they only do the highest level they can.

A wizard can only cast from the spells he's memorized for that day, whereas a sorcerer could cast from any of his spells as normal. A cleric would also pick each day which spells he has access to but could still substitute healing/inflicting spells as normal. So any class that picks spells each day continues to do so and any that cast freely continue to do so.

Please let me know what you think of this idea and any ways to improve it. Thanks!

 

[maggot]

I've thought of something like this. I'm going to list the problems I ran into and later I'll post my solutions (I don't want my solutions getting in the way of discussion, or worse, becoming the discussion).

Problem 1: Healing. How do you handle the cleric that wants to cast cure light wounds outside of combat?

Problem 2: Long term buffs. How do you handle Heroes' Feat that lasts for 12 hours or Heroism that can last for a few hour or even a 10 minute Bull's Strength.

Problem 3: All high-level spells all the time. If each encounter you can lead with your highest level spell, why ever use the lower level spells. In regular D&D, you run out of 4th level spells and then have to start using 3rd level spells, or you conserve your 4th level spells by using your 3rd level spells instead. In the per encounter system, you don't have that so you will probably only see high level spells.

 

[Andre]

Problem 1: Healing. How do you handle the cleric that wants to cast cure light wounds outside of combat?

Only a problem if the GM wants to be able to whittle down the party's hit points over time. My group loves being able to heal to full between encounters, and I can still challenge them sufficiently.

This also significantly changes the paradigm of the cleric as healer - clerics only worry about being able to heal in an emergency, otherwise taking care of healing during downtime. Gives clerics a chance to have more fun in combat. In some groups, that might be a problem, but not in mine. YMMV.

Problem 2: Long term buffs. How do you handle Heroes' Feat that lasts for 12 hours or Heroism that can last for a few hour or even a 10 minute Bull's Strength.

My solution is to subtract from the character's available spell points any spells with a duration. So if the sorcerer has mage armor up, that's one less point. Fly, three less points. And so on. Only when the spell lapses or is dismissed, can the spell points be regained and used for other spells. It forces casters to make tough decisions between buffing and instant spells.

Problem 3: All high-level spells all the time. If each encounter you can lead with your highest level spell, why ever use the lower level spells. In regular D&D, you run out of 4th level spells and then have to start using 3rd level spells, or you conserve your 4th level spells by using your 3rd level spells instead. In the per encounter system, you don't have that so you will probably only see high level spells.

Two solutions -
1) don't throw the same type of encounter at the party each time. Fireball isn't useful in every situation.
2) Keep the number of spell points low. If a high-level caster has a choice of one max spell, or several lower-level spells in an encounter, which will he use? Depends on the situation, Limiting spells with durations as I previously mentioned plays an important role here too, as a caster will almost never have all his spell points available at the start of the encounter (he'll almost certainly have some buffs up).

 

[ShadowX]

I really like the encounter based mechanics of Tome of Battle, even if they lose some of the verisimilitude of normal D&D rules. However, trying to tie them to the D&D magic system is a very dangerous proposition. For one, magic always operated on the principle of resource management and basing magic on encounters evaporates that consideration. Of course, this isn't a concern if a DM allows the caster to rest without consequence, because then casters are uninhibited from casting their best spells early and often. Second, you have to consider the effects of magic outside encounters, such as the already mentioned healing or utility spells like scrying. This is doubly important because these spells figure prominently in the traditional resource management view of spellcasting. Finally, you will need to discuss the details of spellcasting. Which spells does the caster have access to? How does metamagic work? Sorcerer or Wizard framework in essence.

A few thoughts on how to get this to work. First, you are allowing too many points an encounter. Look at a level 3 arcane caster under your rules. He can cast 4 scorching rays an encounter, or the same amount as a 4th level sorcerer in normal D&D can cast in an entire day. Considering that most D&D battles end within 5 rounds, this is far too generous. If you want to keep it a simple formula for spell points, I would suggest 1.5 x level or even no multiplier at all. I think you want to shoot for about 3 highest level spells per an encounter.

As for healing, I would just assume all healers have the equivalent of the healing reserve feat. As such, out of combat they can heal everyone to half health with no consequence. In combat I would allow healing beyond this, just because it means the cleric is spending time and spellpoints on healing rather than overcoming the enemy. Alternatively, just remove in-combat healing and let Druids and Clerics have their fun outside of the normal healing niche.

Utility spells are not so easily incorporated. It seems to me you want something similar to Arcana Evolved's readied spell system where the caster can choose spells from their spell list every morning and then cast them in like a sorcerer. If you choose this route, allow unlimited utility spells out-of-combat as a consequence of choosing the spell instead of something usually more relevant. Things like Scrying or Locate City are not likely to break the game if allowed in large amounts.

I do like the above poster's idea for buff spells, it poses dilemmas for the casters and it has pretty good flavor too. It also might reduce the complex math caused by buffs in higher level D&D because all buffs have basically infinite duration until you turn them off.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I agree on the per encounter balancing of spells.

This is a system posted here several months ago that I've been tinkering with. I didn't create it but here's a link to the thread. It's about three posts down titled token casting system, it's based on the Iron Heroes token system but it can be modified.
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=198922

 

[Cheiromancer]

My favorite spell point system is 5 spell points per level, and each spell costs 1 + spell level spell points. It makes spellcasters a little stronger at lower levels, and a little weaker at higher levels. Which makes them more balanced over all, imho.

The "encounter-based" variant I devised gives 2 spell points per level (like the OP's proposal), but spellcasters can recharge up to 4 times per day. Spells will still have a cost of 1 + spell level. They will have more spell points per day (8 sp/level vs 5 sp/level) but won't be able to "nova". If you allow the number of recharges to be increased, there starts to be a problem with instantaneous spells (cures, disintegrates, walls, etc.). 6 or 8 recharges a day is probably the limit if the caster is casting instantaneous or permanent spells.

Some other rules:

• A caster with a high ability score should get bonus spell points equal to the ability modifier, but not higher than 1/2 his caster level. I.e. a 6th level wizard with an 18 intelligence would only get +3 sp (to a base of 12 sp/encounter). Round up.
  
• Specialists get bonus spell points equal to their caster level/2 (rounded up). This must be spent on spells in the school of specialization, but normal spell points can also be used to buy these spells.
  
• Clerics get a pool of domain spell points equal to their caster level/2 (rounded up), but domain spells can be purchased *only* with domain spell points, not regular spell points.
  
• Sorcerers get a base of 3 sp/encounter instead of 2 sp/encounter.
  
• Every caster can cast 1 free cantrip/orison per encounter.

Problem 2: Long term buffs. How do you handle Heroes' Feat that lasts for 12 hours or Heroism that can last for a few hour or even a 10 minute Bull's Strength.

My solution is to subtract from the character's available spell points any spells with a duration. So if the sorcerer has mage armor up, that's one less point. Fly, three less points. And so on. Only when the spell lapses or is dismissed, can the spell points be regained and used for other spells. It forces casters to make tough decisions between buffing and instant spells.

This is a very elegant way of handling it. I'd not count permanent spells against the available spell points, though.

And, although I recommend that spells cost (spell level +1) to cast, I think these "pre-cast spells" should be at their reduced cost of (spell level). Otherwise low level casters are seriously nerfed.

 

[Stalker0]

Phoenix, I think the basic system is fine, but your spellpoints are too high towards the higher levels.

A 20th level wizard who can cast 5 9th level spells every combat is the end all be all, he will utterly dominate every combat. I think the number needs to be toned down, both to encourage a bit more discretion in 9th level spell casting as well as encouraging lower level spell use.

 

[milo]

Have a recharge time based on the spell level. D4+spell level-ability score,minimum of 1 round. Not perfect but something like that would prevent the 9th level spell every round. I can't think of a perfect recharge time, but I am sure someone can run with it and make it better. This might seem like it would really nerf the low level spellcasters, but if you look at 5 encounters a day a wizard or even a sorcerer couldn't cast more than one spell at each encounter. A decent score at low levels could easily mean a spell every other round. D4+1(for spell level)-3(for a high 16 int score) would give him a max recharge of 2 rounds. At a high level say 18 with a 22 score you couldn't cast a ninth even every 3 rounds. D4+9(for spell level)-6(for int score) gives you a D4+3 (4-7 rounds). You could even make a feat to lower the recharge time.

 

[FireLance]

Here is my attempt at a spells per encounter system. I've done up Evocation (Fire) spells for now, and I'm currently working on Evocation (Electricity).

The basic working assumptions are:

Spell Slots

Spellcasters get fewer spell slots than they do presently - the working assumption is 2 + 1/2 caster level, so a 1st-level spellcaster gets 2 slots, a 2nd-level spellcaster gets 3 slots, and so on. A spell slot can hold a spell of any level, but each spell slot must be filled with a unique spell (no duplicates). Between encounters, a spellcaster can fill an empty spell slot by meditating for 2 minutes. During an encounter, a spellcaster can re-fill an expended spell slot by spending a full-round action that attracts attacks of opportunity, and succeeding at a Concentration check (DC 15 + 2 x spell level). A spell that has a duration continues to occupy its spell slot until its duration expires, or it is dismissed or dispelled. This effectively sets a limit on the number of active spells that a spellcaster can maintain at any one time.

Spells

Because spell slots can hold spells of any level, the main limitation on a spellcaster is the number of spells that he knows at each level (this is essentially the approach used in the Book of Nine Swords). The working assumption is that a spellcaster knows two spells at 1st level, and learns an additional spell at each level thereafter. Knowledge of spells is already effectively limited by caster level (you need to be a 3rd-level spellcaster to know 2nd-level spells, for example). Some spells (in particular, the more powerful ones) have additional prerequisites, such as knowledge of a minimum number of related spells, or knowledge of a specific spell.

Once concept adapted from the psionics system is that a spell (even a 1st-level spell) should be useful at all levels. Hence, there will not be any spell level-based damage caps, and certain spells may have varying (but essentially similar) effects at different caster levels. In addition, saving throw DCs are based on caster level, and not spell level (the working assumption is 10 + 1/2 caster level + key ability modifier).

An attempt will be made to remove the concept of spell level entirely, since there is no need for spell level when assigning spells to spell slots and when setting saving throw DCs. For purposes of learning spells, a minimum caster level can be listed as a prerequisite.

Fundamentals

Certain spells (most likely, low-level spells without prerequisites apart from minimum caster level) also grant knowledge of fundamentals (the term is taken from a similar concept for the Shadowcaster in Tome of Magic). A fundamental is a minor magical effect that a spellcaster can use at will. For example, most basic offensive spells will have fundamentals that can be used to launch a magical attack against an opponent. A spellcaster that runs out of spell slots in the middle of an encounter can thus either attempt to re-fill an expended spell slot, or fall back on his fundamentals.

Swift Actions

In the same way that a standard action can be traded for a move action, a standard or move action can be traded for a swift action. Spells must be balanced around the idea that a spellcaster can cast up to three spells in a round.

Metamagic Feats

Metamagic feats should be usable once per encounter and should be balanced differently since the concept of spell levels may be removed. Empower Spell and Maximize Spell are tentatively balanced by the need to spend four and six swift actions respectively before they can be used on a spell (this has the added side-effect of ensuring that these feats do not come into play for a few rounds, and may also delay the spellcaster's use of his best spell till that time). Quicken tentatively reduces the caster level of a spell by six (so that a 7th-level spellcaster casting a Quickened spell casts it as a 1st-level spellcaster).

 

[Felnar]

Thinking about a new house rule to get around the low level symptom of having one or two fights in a dungeon then going back to rest so that spells can be regained. It breaks the flavor and realism for me that the party has to go rest every few hours because the cleric or mage (or both) have used up their spells for the day.
...
My idea is based on the maneuver system in the Book of Nine Swords. I want spellcasters to get a certain number of uses PER ENCOUNTER that will refresh once they have a few minutes downtime.

your system does a lot more than just addressing your stated problem
it gives increased ability to spell nova
unlimited use of many spells will break your world (eg. who needs farmers when town cleric can create food and water all day?)

imo clerics and wizards have more than enough spells for 4 appropriately CR'd encounters. and even if they do use all their spells (dont forget cantrips), they're still only one BAB and a feat behind the fighter

i think you should narrow focus of your solution