Spells that Deny Dex bonus?

[Wulf Ratbane]

You could also use Summon Monster to bring in something to help you flank.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I disagree that the grease spell works in that fashion. The spell reiterates those rules of the Balance skill that it uses; something as incredibly combat important as a creature losing its Dex bonus would be in the text of the spell, IMO. That's a ridiculously powerful effect for a first-level spell, when combined with the other effects of grease.

Note that if a DM allows this to happen, he also pretty much has to follow the other rule in Balance, that says that anyone taking damage while balancing has to make another Balance check.

In the description of the spell, one is "balancing" when attempting to move. One isn't necessarily "balancing" when standing in the same place, even if engaged in melee. (Note, for instance, that the spell doesn't require a Balance check every round ... it instead requires a Reflex save.) So, yes, if someone in a greased area is attacked while attempting to move through that area, he's flat-footed (and will have to make another Balance check if damaged), but if that person is not moving -- as defined in the Balance skill description -- that person isn't "balancing," and can't be "attacked while balancing."

 

[Zappo]

I'm not sure if that's what you really want.
A wand of grease (750 gp) would cast Grease at 1st lvl, with a duration of 1 rd.
Not very useful.
A wand with more levels would be much more costly
(1500 gp for a 2nd lvl wand of grease).

In our group we are wondering if this item is worth it or not.
So far.. we think it is
(at lvl 2 at least)

I'd pay twice that for something that helps me making full sneak attacks. The real problem is preventing victims from making their save (DC what, 11?) and walking away before I get to make a full sneak attack on them. I need someone else to cast the spell right before my turn...

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I disagree that the grease spell works in that fashion.

I think it does deny Dex to AC, but the situation when that would occur is pretty limited. If you pass your save, you're going to move out of the area (and remember, it's only a 10-foot square). If you fail your save, you fall and thus aren't balancing.

The only time I can see a character balancing is when trying to move through the 10 foot square at half speed, failing the Balance check, and then passing the Reflex save. Or when passing the Balance check but not moving out of the area. Both of these scenarios should be pretty rare. If the spell had a larger area of effect, then I could see there being some problems in terms of the power of the spell.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Grease
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target or Area: One object or a 10-ft. square
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must
make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area.
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it
can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance
skill for details).
The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell,
while an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving
throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to
pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape
Artist checks and on grapple checks made to resist or escape a grapple or to escape a pin.
Material Component: A bit of pork rind or butter.

Balance:

BALANCE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: You can walk on a precarious surface. A successful check lets you move at half your speed along the surface for 1
round. A failure by 4 or less means you can’t move for 1 round. A failure by 5 or more means you fall. The difficulty varies
with the surface, as follows:
[snip]
Being Attacked while Balancing: You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow,
and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flatfooted
while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to
remain standing.
Accelerated Movement: You can try to walk across a precarious surface more quickly than normal. If you accept a –5
penalty, you can move your full speed as a move action. (Moving twice your speed in a round requires two Balance checks,
one for each move action used.) You may also accept this penalty in order to charge across a precarious surface; charging
requires one Balance check for each multiple of your speed (or fraction thereof ) that you charge.
Action: None. A Balance check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a
situation.
Special: If you have the Agile feat, you get a +2 bonus on Balance checks.
Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you get a +2 bonus on Balance checks.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Again, simply standing in the area of the grease spell doesn't force a Balance check. (It forces a Reflex save, but that is a distinctly different mechanic.) Even fighting within the spell's area doesn't force a Balance check. The only action requiring a Balance check, as described in the spell, is movement. As such, only when moving is the character "balancing," and thus subject to "being attacked while balancing," and thus without Dex (and forced to make additional checks when taking damage).

Again, this is an important enough effect in combat that, if intended, it would have been called out in the spell's description, as other rules of the Balance skill were.

BTW, note that if a character never moves within the area of a grease spell, then by the text of the spell itself the character is never required to make a Balance check. How is one to rule that a character is "balancing," for the purpose of "being attacked while balancing," when the character in question has never been required to make a Balance check?

The only way to do so is to create a "condition" ... something like, "Balancing: If, in moving, a character would be required to make a Balance check, that character is said to be 'balancing.'" If that rule existed, I'd agree wholeheartedly that grease is as powerful as y'all think ... but that rule doesn't exist. In its absence, it's at least reasonable to require "balancing" to include some kind of Balance check having been attempted, isn't it?

 

[Stone Angel]

a bag of tricks is also usefull for adding a flanking companion. Anything that causes blindness or stunning, paralysis and the like also give you your requirement for making a sneak attack. Daze might even work but I don't have the dmg to look at the condition summaries to see if it does or not.


the Seraph of Earth and Stone

 

[Zappo]

Again, simply standing in the area of the grease spell doesn't force a Balance check. (It forces a Reflex save, but that is a distinctly different mechanic.) Even fighting within the spell's area doesn't force a Balance check. The only action requiring a Balance check, as described in the spell, is movement. As such, only when moving is the character "balancing," and thus subject to "being attacked while balancing," and thus without Dex (and forced to make additional checks when taking damage).

You're right, but now I wonder - when is a character balancing? If you start your movement in a Grease and end it outside the Grease, are you balancing until your next turn?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

You're right, but now I wonder - when is a character balancing? If you start your movement in a Grease and end it outside the Grease, are you balancing until your next turn?

An excellent question. I honestly think it's currently outside the rules, and subject -- more subject, I mean -- to DM judgment.

I do think, however, that at the very least a character subject to "being attacked while balancing" has to have been subject to a required Balance check within the last round. At least until the Balance skill is clarified or a "Balancing" condition is created.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Frankly, grease is a terminally stupid spell. It mixes up reflex saves and balance mechanics.

It really ought to pick one or the other. And my money would be on balance. Having the spell force balancing with a DC equal to the save DC would be a far more coherent way of handling things.

Finally - I don't really think that having a 1st level spell allow sneak attacks and loss of dex to ac for what will usually amount to a SINGLE round, and only then IF the target doesn't have 5 ranks in balance is overpowering. Compare with something like summon monster or colour spray...

Oh, and colour spray stuns for a single round, which is enough to allow sneak attacks...

Extend it to bump the effect to two rounds.