Spells that Deny Dex bonus?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

You're right, but now I wonder - when is a character balancing? If you start your movement in a Grease and end it outside the Grease, are you balancing until your next turn?

No. But if another character (oh I dunno, maybe someone with a sneak attack ) has an attack action readied, then that's when the balancing moment comes in to play.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Having the spell force balancing with a DC equal to the save DC would be a far more coherent way of handling things.

It would, however, also be substantially more powerful. Everyone has Reflex saves. Not everyone has Balance ranks. A forced Balance check of 15 or so is much harder to make for most characters and monsters than a Reflex save of 15 or so.

Finally - I don't really think that having a 1st level spell allow sneak attacks and loss of dex to ac for what will usually amount to a SINGLE round, and only then IF the target doesn't have 5 ranks in balance is overpowering.

You're not the first to say this about a single round, and I just dont get it. I use grease fairly often with my primary PC, and I (a) usually use it on Large creatures (b) who are unable to move out of the effect. It's not at all a difficult situation to achieve. I would love for it to deny Dex, setting the two rogues up for sneak attacks, but IMO it's just too powerful that way. As is, it's a very good first-level spell.

Also note that there's no way for the target to avoid the huge tactical disadvantage being imposed on him by the "no Dex" ruling. (Aside from having 5 ranks in Balance, and who's going to cast the spell at a thief-acrobat?) Apparently, even if he makes his save, y'all would deny him Dex.

Compare with something like summon monster or colour spray...

Summoned creatures can sometimes be worked around, and color spray has limits on hit dice affected. Not to mention that grease has substantial effects aside from the "no Dex" side-effect y'all wanna give it, whereas the other two spells you mentioned are pretty much specifically intended to have that effect.

 

[Elwood Slayer]

Orb of Cold

Orb of Cold (Wizard 4) from Complete Arcane is a spell that I like a lot for my Arcane Trickster.

Use it like this:

Round 1, Win Initiative and sneak attack with Orb of Cold for d6/level ranged touch cold damage + sneak attack.

Orb of Cold blinds your opponent for a round if he fails his Fortitude Save.

If he is blinded, you get to Orb of Cold again on Round 2 for Sneak Attack damage and possibly another blind.

Rinse and repeat until opponent is dead.

 

[Saeviomagy]

You're not the first to say this about a single round, and I just dont get it. I use grease fairly often with my primary PC, and I (a) usually use it on Large creatures (b) who are unable to move out of the effect.

A large creature who is unable to move is in trouble because he's unable to move, not because he's been greased. I mean really, why not just back off and pepper him with ranged attacks? Or just leave him there?

Or do you mean he's either (a) dumb enough to stand in a corner or (b) has 12 PC's standing around him

The single round thing is because he just moves out of the spell. For a large creature, maybe two rounds.

Also note that there's no way for the target to avoid the huge tactical disadvantage being imposed on him by the "no Dex" ruling. (Aside from having 5 ranks in Balance, and who's going to cast the spell at a thief-acrobat?)

Or just moving out of the effect.

Apparently, even if he makes his save, y'all would deny him Dex.

Until he leaves the small area the spell hits

Summoned creatures can sometimes be worked around, and color spray has limits on hit dice affected.

Not for the stun effect it doesn't. It just has BIGGER effects on lower hit die creatures.

Not to mention that grease has substantial effects aside from the "no Dex" side-effect y'all wanna give it

Yeah, people fall over. Colour spray makes them drop their weapons (or fall out of the sky - grease doesn't even touch flyers). Summoned monsters have attacks, create light, or other interesting things. It's all good.