Spells: The Essentials

[steeldragons]

Silent image.

Hey Neon! Long time no see. Hope all's well.

I figure Silent Image would go into the "cantrippy" spells as well...with improving/greater "Phantasmal Force"-esque (Minor Image, Major Image, Super-DUPER Image) to come in other higher levels.

Baleful transmutation (or foe to frog or whatever you want to call the classic spell) as something high level.

Very true. I'd like to see Polymorphs back in the game...but yeah, what were they 3rd level originally? Too low. I'd make them 4th at least!

Or, like Polymorph Self, 3rd...maybe...and Polymorph Other (Baleful Transformation) aas 4th or even higher.

I disagree we need Protection from Normal Missiles -

Eh. I was just reaching to get the 10 spells in...and seemed we could use another defensive-type spell. "Hittin' the wizard in the back" is a fairly common tactic when the guy in the funny robes starts talkin' gibberish and waving his arms. Blocking arrows, stones, spears, anything that might be able to reach him/her seemed something most mages would want at their disposal.

or that a wizard needs Protection from Evil.

Well, originally, other than the -1 to evil attacks and/or +1 to saves (I don't recall exactly the spell entails/entailed that way in later editions), the Pro from Evil was kinda the MU's "magic circle" kinda thing. A ring of salt, so to speak. So, aside from the minor mechanical +' or -'s, it staved off attack from Undead, Demons, Elementals, Magical Beings (like Gargoyles) simply could not attack the mage. They couldn't "get to him" because of the mystical interference.

Had more to do with the "nature" of the creatures, than actual being "evil."

So, it seems to me, a basic "1st grade" kinda of spell for anyone dealing in the occult would need to have...even if it just meant casting it and hightailing it outta there before the spell wore off and the elemental could pummel you into paste.

Could always rebrand it, as such, to "Protection from Magic" or "Protection from Arcane Creatures" or some such.

So, we get a minimal spell list in the core book... and then have to buy another book or books to get other spells that have been in the core books in the past?

That will not go over well.

I said nothing about what would be added in other books. I'm just thinking for pure simplicity's and ease of "start up" sake. New players don't (or rather, I don't believe should) need hundreds of pages of spell descriptions to get started.

If the spread/selection is good...there's no reason one might need more spells. You'd never be able to cast all ten (of any particular spell level) in a single day. Might cut down on the "No fair, mage's can do ANYthing" arguments also.

Charm Person Invisibility fly Those made most of skills meanless

And those are too easy to get

I guess remove they or move they to the higher Lv spell would be good

I see this pov a lot. Never had such problems in my own games. But I can't say it's not valid. Charm person, Invisibility and Fly all had very precise duration limitations as well as limitations of use. Effecting one person for a limtied amount of time is not really so incredibly disruptive, imo.

I noticed that the initial list heavily favors the AD&D PHB.

Guilty as charged. Was just workin' off of what I know...and has been around the longest...the "classic" D&D spells is kinda the point of the post.

I would add these spells to the now "classic" list:

Arcane
mage armor
acid arrow
major image (spectral forces, etc.)
black tentacles
stoneskin

Oh, definitely. But most of those are higher level than I presented. Mage armor, for sure, should go in the 1st level list.

Divine
entangle
aid
flame blade
protection from energy
divine smite (holy/unholy)
flame strike

Again, higher level than I initially listed, but valid. "Aid" I kinda thought was more like Chant...and Entangle and Flame Sword, of course, would go in the Druid/Nature spell lists (assuming there is a distinction from the Clerical) and/or in a "Plant" and "Elemental", respectively, Clerical Domain/Sphere list...again, assuming they use those.

But I would certainly see everything on those lists being counted as "Classic" D&D spells. Yes.

I don't mind seeing either Hold spells or Continual Light, but they need to be higher level; holds are basically save-or-lose spells that shouldn't be available to low level casters, and continual light should be higher level to aid in verisimilitude (otherwise, permanent lights easily castable would light up every little village through the whole world).

Good point on the Cont' Light. The Hold Person, for Clerics always stuck me as apropos. A spell, that didn't cause damage or harm, but could be used defensively or offensively as one of the Cleric's few real "combat-relative spells, not usable before 3rd level...and realistically, not usable at high levels either as higher level foes would almost certainly make their saves. But gave the cleric a nice "breathing space" in the interrum.

Dispel Magic and Identify should go with Detect magic into the Arcana skill.

It might make it too complicated, but pehaps conditions should have the equivalent of hit points.

A character is charmed by a wizard called Malafix using charm person. A friend wants to remove it. He uses his Arcana to Dispel Magic. He basically attacks the charm and hits for 11 points of damage. The charm has 6 left.

On Malafix's next turn he reinforces the charm healing it for 3 hit points. The friend attacks the charm again on his next turn for 12 points removing the charm.

Interesting concept. I am hoping that "conditions" go the way of the dodo. But an interesting "magic must fight magic" idea.

I would like some sort of demarcation of what each type of magic can encompass, rather than simply being able to do anything and everything.

I'm not sure what/how you mean? Like, Arcane can effect environments but not people or something? Feel free to elaborate.

Alternatively, all casters should in my opinion be limited to a certain number of schools/domains/whatever.

Definitely. And it great for flavor. I limit my campaign/game world spell lists quite a bit for what this cleric from this temple of this god can cast, that this other temple's clerics can't...Specialist mage schools as heavily altered in my world. The schools are defined by what you can cast any, some of or no access at all! None of this I can decide what I don't want to learn, silliness.

Eldritch Bolt
Feystep
Dragonbreath
Storm Pillar
Thunder Wave
Fireball
Aegis of Assault
Aegis of Ensnarement
Aegis of Shielding
Lashing Asp
Dimensional Thunder
Teleporting Strike
Blazing Starfall
Chromatic Orb
Chaos Bolt

All of these should be in 5E too.

Ah, Chromatic Orb...Loved that spell. The Illusionist's mini-contained-prismatic spray. Always kept it (albeit altered a bit) in my games.

Not sure what the rest of these do...but they sound cool...and rather high level.

--SD

 

[Hassassin]

Charm Person, Invisibility, Fly are all such classics that they need to be there. Level, duration, etc. can be thought through so that they aren't too disruptive.

Instead of Protection from Arrows/Normal Missiles, I'd like to see some variation of Wind Wall to fill the same niche - i.e. protect the fragile wizard from ranged attacks. More thematic and interesting effect, plus static and with a lot of other uses.

All those 10'/15' radii could be unified, IMO.

For dispel magic, I wish there was some other kind of mechanic to deal with countering and dispelling. Something like what 3e Improved Counterspell does as the default, maybe.

 

[dnlas]

Charm Person, Invisibility, Fly are all such classics that they need to be there. Level, duration, etc. can be thought through so that they aren't too disruptive.

3e Improved Counterspell does as the default, maybe.

charm Person and Invisibility are not very good in combat but work too well in skill-challenges.

For example, one NPC want to hold some secret, PC need to used some skill like bluff Intimidate Diplomacy or just make some promise, pay some coins to make him tell.

Some PCs may like this situation because they can show skills they're good at or display their street-wise.

Charm person would break this. Just roll a save and order DM tells evethings the NPC know.

Those spell make skills meanless even in low rank , You dont need to find cover to sneak,buy rope to climb, makea bluff to distract a guard.

Just spells spells spells

That's bored

 

[Hassassin]

Some PCs may like this situation because they can show skills they're good at or display their street-wise.

Charm person would break this. Just roll a save and order DM tells evethings the NPC know.

Those spell make skills meanless even in low rank , You dont need to find cover to sneak,buy rope to climb, makea bluff to distract a guard.

Just spells spells spells

That's bored

Spells don't make skills meaningless. If the mage has a diplomacy spell prepared, he probably doesn't have a sneak spell and/or has one combat spell fewer. They are just another approach to the problem.

Also, charm person (3e) makes targets friendly. That's not even the best result skills can achieve (helpful), and certainly doesn't mean they will do whatever you want them to.

 

[howandwhy99]

Cleric (Divine)
Druidic (Prime Material)
Illusionist (Phantasmal)
Magic-User (Arcane)
Psionic (Psychogenic)

Lists are on PHB pages 111, 125-126

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think we need the following (level and access to be decided)

Fireball
Lighting bolt
Magic missle
Sleep
Mage armor
Scorching ray
Cloud of daggers
Dispell magic
Black tenicles
Stone skin
Haste
Slow
Shadow magic
Enerveration
Energy drain
Horrid wilting
Hold person
Cure x wound
Heal
Remove affliction
Bless
Aid
Disjunction
Call lightning
Good berry
Divine might
Divine power
Faithful hound
Healing strike
Summon x


And wish and limited wish as the most powerful rituals

 

[MooMan68]

Let just chip in that I would also like spells such as Charm Person, Web, and Invisibility to be higher level. I'm not a fan of gimping these spells to the point of being nearly unrecognizable in order to allow them to be at their original level.

I also would like some of these spells to have costs. Not gold piece costs, but some reason why they should not be done lightly. Charm Person, in any campaign I ran, was always a dangerous spell to cast. Once it wore off the victim would be *very* angry.

I wish I were clever enough to come up with similar costs to spells like Web and Invisibility. But I haven't yet.....

 

[Votan]

I wish I were clever enough to come up with similar costs to spells like Web and Invisibility. But I haven't yet.....

Make operating under invisibility like walking underwater -- extremely taxing and tiring. People who do a lot under the spell end up exhausted.

With web, really enforce the anchor points and remember it is a barrier for the party as well.

 

[Hassassin]

Make operating under invisibility like walking underwater -- extremely taxing and tiring.

You can't breathe while invisible.

 

[erf_beto]

You can't breathe while invisible.

You know, I could see that happening.
And in the movies, when Frodo used the One Ring he sort of walked into another plane - what if that plane was devoid of (breathable) air? Or was so dangerous you couldn't stay there for long without some sort of (high level) protection? X-Men's Nightcrawler teleports by travelling a short distance through a hell dimension, IIRC.