Spells which were not properly nerved...

[yesnomu]

First off, I'm not talking about the use of these spells from a DMs-vs.-players perspective--the DM has and will always have a zillion ways of taking out players, most of which aren't even accessible to the PCs. I'm looking at them from the perspective of the players, and the tools that are appropriate for them to have.

Secondly, it's amusing to note that both WoW and 4e have Baleful Polymorph equivalents--sheeping people is a great Mage trick and BP is a level 15 Druid daily--but they're roughly balanced with other options available. Whereas here, BP is the goto remove-from-battle level 5 spell for Wizards and Druids. And again, it's strictly better (for the PCs' purposes) than Finger of Death, two levels higher. It's not hard to make the fantasy trope balanced, but right now it's not.

Lastly, Dominate Person is trivially easy to ward against--Protection From [Foo]-easy. So a BBEG and his important minions will definitely be protected, and a large number of potential opponents at that level aren't targetable at all. I consider it appropriately-leveled. Plane Shift, on the other hand...

 

[kinem]

4e's baleful polymorph is just a "save ends" effect, which is only a way of giving a round or two of time to inflict hp damage, not a spell that actually does anything interesting.

A long term effect doesn't just end a battle - it potentially creates a situation with role playing implications. Heck, you could carry a powerful monster as a bunny in your backpack, then let it out and cast dispel magic. Try doing that in 4e. Real D&D's not all about damage per round.

 

[yesnomu]

4e's baleful polymorph is just a "save ends" effect, which is only a way of giving a round or two of time to inflict hp damage, not a spell that actually does anything interesting.

A long term effect doesn't just end a battle - it potentially creates a situation with role playing implications. Heck, you could carry a powerful monster as a bunny in your backpack, then let it out and cast dispel magic. Try doing that in 4e. Real D&D's not all about damage per round.

*head buried in hands* OK, so it's better than a remove from battle spell. Great. I'm very happy for you.

Look, I'm not championing the 4e effects system here! 3.x is rocket launcher tag, 4e is padded sumo, great, I don't care. Other games are entirely irrelevant to this discussion! I only brought them up to show that it's possible to preserve the archetype with a less powerful spell. A nerf is not going to cause the end of the world and make you start whining to the main tank to pull aggro off the DPS.

What I'm saying here is: based on the evident design choices made by the PF devs, Baleful Polymorph (and Plane Shift and Flesh to Stone and possibly Phantasmal Killer) is too big a rocket for its level. It should be nerfed--either pushed back some levels, made to allow more saves, or in some other, more imaginative fashion.

 

[Nikosandros]

One idea might be to roll a certain amount of dice for "polymorph damage"; if the total exceeds the current hp of the victim, the spell takes effect. In this case, the fort save might halve the damage, instead of negating the spell.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

One idea might be to roll a certain amount of dice for "polymorph damage"; if the total exceeds the current hp of the victim, the spell takes effect. In this case, the fort save might halve the damage, instead of negating the spell.

HERO system? Is that you?

 

[Nikosandros]

HERO system? Is that you?

Indeed. I find it a very reasonable idea... if I'm able to do enough damage to kill you, I've earned the "right" to do other nasty stuff, like turning you into a toad.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Indeed. I find it a very reasonable idea... if I'm able to do enough damage to kill you, I've earned the "right" to do other nasty stuff, like turning you into a toad.

That's fine as a design principle-- and I like it just fine in HERO-- but it does make the spell more powerful, not less.

Hit points are derived from Hit Dice. Saving throws are also derived from Hit Dice. There's already a "hit point" connection in every saving throw, via the advancing save bonus mechanic. Hit dice go up, saving throws go up, hit points go up. It's all the same thing.

If hit points can be ablated before casting the spell, its power potentially goes up-- unless of course the amount of damage that the spell does is somewhat less than 2 or 3 points per die.

It is nicely customizable but I am not convinced it is a silver bullet fix.

EDIT: Although I will say, the ability of the fighting classes to directly impact the ability of the spellcasters to do their job is a nice perk.

 

[Nikosandros]

Well, it's was just an impromptu idea...

Anyway, one could use the same rule as in HERO where the transform damage must exceeds the initial value of hp (actually, in 6th edition, you must inflict double the amount of original body of the target).

On the other hand, one could also argue that it is fine if the spell becomes more effective once the target's hp have been ablated. At that point, casting such a spell might be a "waste" and I could just kill the target with a lower level evocation spell.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Well, it's was just an impromptu idea...

True, and a good one, and I appreciate the thought-provoking.

Anyway, one could use the same rule as in HERO where the transform damage must exceeds the initial value of hp (actually, in 6th edition, you must inflict double the amount of original body of the target).

You're about 3 editions ahead of me then.

Double the amount of BODY can also be accomplished by halving the base damage it does...

On the other hand, one could also argue that it is fine if the spell becomes more effective once the target's hp have been ablated. At that point, casting such a spell might be a "waste" and I could just kill the target with a lower level evocation spell.

Agreed, but I personally find it easier to just say, "Creatures that are bloodied suffer a -4 penalty to their saving throw."

Of course what this thread entails is curtailing such powerful spells, not increasing it.

To reduce the efficacy of Save-or-Die spells, you would want to grant a +4 bonus to the saving throw under certain conditions. Such effects already exist for a lot of spells (particularly mind-affecting spells: are you in combat? is the spell going to kill you if you obey? etc.) so it is not a big stretch at all to go with the following:

Creatures with more than 50% of their hit points remaining receive a +4 bonus to their saving throw.

 

[kinem]

*head buried in hands* OK, so it's better than a remove from battle spell. Great. I'm very happy for you.

It's better, but from a game play perspective. Games with outlets for creativity like that are more interesting. That has nothing to do with power balance.

What I'm saying here is: based on the evident design choices made by the PF devs, Baleful Polymorph (and Plane Shift and Flesh to Stone and possibly Phantasmal Killer) is too big a rocket for its level.

The evident design choice they made was to leave in those spells, so your argument doesn't make any sense. If the designers had wanted to do what you suggest, they would have. Obviously they did not want to.

Creatures with more than 50% of their hit points remaining receive a +4 bonus to their saving throw.

If you want to nerf spellcasters, this might make sense in some cases, though not always. It's not bad.

Why not just accept that hit point damage does not always have to be the focus of the game?

I guess it's because some classes only do hit point attacks, but I don't see them being irrelevant except in a small fraction of encounters.