Spells which were not properly nerved...

[UngeheuerLich]

thanks for this inerpretation of the rules. Even if it may not br the right one... which i am not sure...

so for me it is like this now: sound is silenced in the are (no save for points in space) but if you succeed if you are in the area, you can still cast your spells (even if noone hears you casting because the air around you is silent, so no language dependent spells), and you get a new save when you enter (which is most surely a loose interpretation of the rules)

I disagree with that the spell cannot be targeted... it is targeted on an object and should fail at all if the object which is targeted saves... at least it should not move with it...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I've never heard of Blasphemy as being even close to broken before...and no it doesn't look to be changed that I can see.

The only Core Demon/Devils that have Blasphemy as an SLA are Balors (CL 20) & Pit Fiend (CL 18), both fixed. They are both CR 20, so realistically you shouldn't be encountering them utnil you are in the 18-20 level range (in a normal game). At which point the effects from Blasphemy are either negligible (i.e. Dazed for the Pit Fiend's and Weakend/Dazed for the Balor's) or easily avoidable: DC 25 Will save to negate Daze and 1/2 the Str penalty... plus SR applies.

Once you should be faciing it as a creature SLA you shouldn't have to really even worry about it, let alone face a TPK from it...

I think the broken not-exactly-core-but-creatable-by-core was using the Half-Fiend template or something like that. The caster level of the spell granted by the template is determined by hit dice, and some monster types have considerably more HD than CR.

I seem to remember a case of this with a monster in the Shackled City adventure path. But it is possible it is a bad example since the template might have been applied to a monster not technically eglible for it. I remember that our cohorts (2 or more levels below us) had no chance.

 

[Twowolves]

Ok, let's look at this again. Silence is a non-instantaneous area of effect spell with a Will save. Let's compare it to other non-instantaneous are of effect spells that grant a will save.

SILENCE
School illusion (glamer); Level bard 2, cleric 2
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or
point in space
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object); Spell
Resistance: yes; see text or no (object)
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the
affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible,
spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise
whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The
spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary
unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on
a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and
moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save
to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a
creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the
benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and
points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are
immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects.

I understand there is no "Target" entry for this spell, but that doesn't mean it can't "target" (no capital "T") anything. "Centered on" and "cast on" aren't defined in the rules like "Targets" are, admittedly, but let's look at other similar spells and how they are worded.

SLEEP
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 1,
sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of
creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among
creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell’s point
of origin are affected first. HD that are not sufficient to affect
a creature are wasted. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping
or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does
not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the
aid another action). Sleep does not target unconscious creatures,
constructs, or undead creatures.

SONG OF DISCORD
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting, sonic]; Level
bard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area creatures within a 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
This spell causes those within the area to turn on each other
rather than attack their foes. Each affected creature has a 50%
chance to attack the nearest target each round. (Roll to determine
each creature’s behavior every round at the beginning of its turn.)
A creature that does not attack its nearest neighbor is free to act
normally for that round. Creatures forced by a song of discord to
attack their fellows employ all methods at their disposal, choosing
their deadliest spells and most advantageous combat tactics. They
do not, however, harm targets that have fallen unconscious.

In both of these cases, we have non-instantaneous, Will negates, area affecting spells. In both of these cases, the Area line specifically mentions "Creatures". Let's look at the rules for area affect spells again, shall we?

Creatures: A spell with this kind of area affects creatures
directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in
an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you
select. The area might be a spherical burst, a cone-shaped
burst, or some other shape.

Since Silence doesn't have this wording, it is obvious that creatures in the area of effect not directly "centered" on them don't get saves to negate. It's not an individual affect. In fact Silence has wording expressing addressing how it works:

SILENCE
School illusion (glamer); Level bard 2, cleric 2
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or
point in space
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object); Spell
Resistance: yes; see text or no (object)
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the
affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible,
spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise
whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The
spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary
unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on
a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and
moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save
to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a
creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the
benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and
points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are
immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects.

The spell description doesn't say "unwilling creatureS" get a save, nor does it say a successful save negates the spell for that creature only. Every other non-instantaneous AoE spell (at least the ones that allow a save) specifiy what happens to creatures entering the area after the spell is cast, but this one doesn't. It appears to me that the only time a Will save is allowed is when the creature making the save is to be designated the point of origin. In such case, that creature and ONLY that creature gets a Will save, and if successful the entire spell is kaput. The only exceptions to this are explicitly mentioned in the description, namely magic items or items in the posession of a creature that are sound sources themselves (since non-magical items not in the posession of a creature don't get saves anyway).

I'm curious Pawsplay, how do you rule Silence in your games? Honestly, do you let everyone in the area of a silence get a Will save? Are you arguing for that case, or just trying to argue how the rules are currently written and are lobbying for erratta? I can see where on first glance the "Will negates" line makes it seem that way, but the spell description goes on to pretty much explain differently. Especially since it says "no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area", implying that even if you did make a save, you still can't hear anything while in the AoE. There is no "Target" line in the spell block, but the description states "the effect is stationary
unless cast on a mobile object", which pretty much says to me it's targeting an object. Finally, it states "The spell can be centered on
a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and
moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save
to negate the spell." The second line isn't immediately after the first by coincidence, it's expressly stating how and when a Will save is called for. Seems pretty clear to me, but I will admit my perception is influenced by how spells worked in all the previous editions. When in doubt, I always use the spell how it's always worked, unless clear and unambiguous evidence dictates otherwise.

 

[pawsplay]

Ok, let's look at this again. Silence is a non-instantaneous area of effect spell with a Will save. Let's compare it to other non-instantaneous are of effect spells that grant a will save.

I would prefer we stick to the rules, since that's a vanishingly small group of spells. But if you insist, I'll pick mind fog and symbol of insanity. Technically, the symbol creates a symbol, but the spell description says to treat it as a spread. Both allow Will saves to negate for anyone in the area, or anyone who enters the area.

Since Silence doesn't have this wording, it is obvious that creatures in the area of effect not directly "centered" on them don't get saves to negate.

Obvious how?

The spell description doesn't say "unwilling creatureS" get a save, nor does it say a successful save negates the spell for that creature only.

The spell states Will negates, without qualification.

Every other non-instantaneous AoE spell (at least the ones that allow a save) specifiy what happens to creatures entering the area after the spell is cast, but this one doesn't.

I agree the spell could be written more clearly.

It appears to me that the only time a Will save is allowed is when the creature making the save is to be designated the point of origin. In such case, that creature and ONLY that creature gets a Will save, and if successful the entire spell is kaput.

Whereas I read it as, if you center on a creature and it saves, the entire spell is kaput. If you cast it on a point in space or an unattended object, it always works, but it follows the usual rules for area spells that have Will negates.

I'm curious Pawsplay, how do you rule Silence in your games? Honestly, do you let everyone in the area of a silence get a Will save?

Honestly, up to this point, no. Now that I have read the spell more carefully, I think I have been playing it incorrectly.

Are you arguing for that case, or just trying to argue how the rules are currently written and are lobbying for erratta? I can see where on first glance the "Will negates" line makes it seem that way, but the spell description goes on to pretty much explain differently. Especially since it says "no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area", implying that even if you did make a save, you still can't hear anything while in the AoE. There is no "Target" line in the spell block, but the description states "the effect is stationary
unless cast on a mobile object", which pretty much says to me it's targeting an object.

Yet is scrupulously avoids the word "target." Furthermore, sanctuary is a targeted spell that has Will negates, and everyone who attacks the target of a sanctuary spell gets a save, so even if the spell were targeted, it wouldn't change anything. I pointed out that it is not a targeted spell for clarity's sake, not because the interpretation I have outlined above relies on it.

Finally, it states "The spell can be centered on
a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and
moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save
to negate the spell." The second line isn't immediately after the first by coincidence, it's expressly stating how and when a Will save is called for.

Those two sentences are separated by a period, so in the first place, I don't see how you can say the second line is umambiguously stating the conditions for the first. In the second place, it is possible for a Will save by the centered creature to negate the spell (entirely) and ALSO allow a negating save by everyone in the spell area.

Seems pretty clear to me, but I will admit my perception is influenced by how spells worked in all the previous editions. When in doubt, I always use the spell how it's always worked, unless clear and unambiguous evidence dictates otherwise.

You mean like AD&D? That can lead you astray, particularly if you try to follow the various versions of darkness.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

well

I'll agree with Pawnsplay that the spell isn't particularly clear.

However, in the last 9 years I've played D&D with probably 100 people, and I've never seen Silenced ruled to grant saves except when specifically targetted on an individual. Apparently, Pawnsplay, you haven't either!

So, does it really seem likely that your current reasoning is correct? I bet if we made a poll, there would be very few (if any) respondents who run Silence this way.

I'd be interested in hearing about how it ran in WoTC house games.

Ken

 

[jreyst]

In my 30 years of playing and DMing arious versions of D&D I have always run it as the target gets a save, anyone else in the area does not. I have played with very, very many people over those 30 years and I can honestly say that I have *never* seen it ruled otherwise, even with dozens of DM's running campaigns.

Is it worded perfectly? No. Do I believe it is supposed to work as I have always seen it run over the last 30 years? Well obviously yes. Are you free to do whatever you like in games you run? Yep, go to town.

I am extremely confident that if you were to get an official answer from anyone at either Paizo, Wizards, or if you could even phone Gary from the grave himself, you would get the same answer.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

The spell states Will negates, without qualification

I disagree. The qualification is:

Will negates; see text or none (object).

My reading of this is that you see the text which describes the circumstance where a successful will save can negate the spell. You go to the text and the only situation where this option occurs is when it is targetted upon an unwilling creature. There is no other provision for a will save in the text.

Rest easy people, I think we have all being playing it right.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Twowolves]

I disagree. The qualification is:

Will negates; see text or none (object).

My reading of this is that you see the text which describes the circumstance where a successful will save can negate the spell. You go to the text and the only situation where this option occurs is when it is targetted upon an unwilling creature. There is no other provision for a will save in the text.

Precisely. The sentence I underlined above is the part referrenced by "see text". Despite the peroid sparating the two sentences I described, it's not a paragraph break nor are they unrelated. Pawsplay is quite fixated on the lack of a "Target" line, even though "see text" usually supercedes the stat block.

Every other non-instantaneous AoE spell has descriptive text that explicitly explains how the spell works with regards to targets in the area or entering the area. Symbol spells (bursts, not spreads, btw) and Mind Fog both have descriptive text that clearly describe when saves are called for, just like Silence does. The descriptive text in Silence might need some editing for clarity, but I've no doubt it works as I've described. Obviously Pawsplay does too, or did, assuming he's not just arguing for semantics' sakes.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I disagree. The qualification is:

Will negates; see text or none (object).

My reading of this is that you see the text which describes the circumstance where a successful will save can negate the spell. You go to the text and the only situation where this option occurs is when it is targetted upon an unwilling creature. There is no other provision for a will save in the text.

Rest easy people, I think we have all being playing it right.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Actually, just editting this to include the other situation where a will save may be offered is when an item is targetted:

"Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not."

For some reason, this does not seem as unclear to me as it does to others.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[pawsplay]

"See text" is not a qualifier on "Will negates." It is a notation, in this case, parallel to "none (object)." All that tells us that special rules apply. We know already that a Will save negates the spell for a person on whom the spell is centered and that special rules apply for objects. Incidentally, Will negates means the spell does not affect the subject. If, indeed, only the centered creature gets a save, then we get the curious circumstance that the person on whom the spell is centered is unaffected while everyone else is. Again, since the person on whom the spell is centered is not the Target, but the center of an area, their being unaffected does not mean the spell ends.

All of this to say, the spell is probably not written up properly. If centered on a creature, it should target the creature in order to work properly, if it is intended to radiate an absolute silence. Incidentally, since the silence allows no SR, it would probably make sense, too, for the spell to be a conjuration effect otherwise it's, well, cheating.

Just for kicks, I looked up the AD&D 2.5 version of silence, 15' radius. It allows no save. However, it allows a save for an unwilling target and uses the same language as the 3.5/Pf versions, implying the conventional, "you get no save" was likely the intention of someone. However, the saving throw designation was changed to "Will negates; see text or none (object)" rather than simply no saving throw. Further, if the unwilling creature makes the save, the silence appears approximately one foot behind them. That is certainly not how the Pathfinder version operates, so extrapolating the Pathfinder version from the AD&D version is problematic, at best.

From a design standpoint, adding "negates" to the saving throw for a spell originally provided a save only to be avoid being stickied by the spell was a bad idea. The result is neither fish, nor foul...

There is probably no really great answer to this one, since either way you interpret the spell departs from previous versions, and allowing a save for everyone in the area raises weird issues (and apparently has little pedigree) while allowing one only for the creature on whom a spell is centered also works strangely unless you use a nonstandard definition of "negates."