Spells which were not properly nerved...

[Twowolves]

"See text" is not a qualifier on "Will negates." It is a notation, in this case, parallel to "none (object)." All that tells us that special rules apply. We know already that a Will save negates the spell for a person on whom the spell is centered and that special rules apply for objects.Incidentally, Will negates means the spell does not affect the subject.

Yeah, special rules do apply. That's how everyone else has been reading the spell the way I (and you as well, until this thread came along) have been using Silence in their games.

Will neg (as read in the text) doesn't negate the spell for the one not-targeted-but-instead-centered, it negates the entire spell.

If, indeed, only the centered creature gets a save, then we get the curious circumstance that the person on whom the spell is centered is unaffected while everyone else is. Again, since the person on whom the spell is centered is not the Target, but the center of an area, their being unaffected does not mean the spell ends.

Or the entire spell is negated as per this quote:

An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save
to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any.

Doesn't say "negates for that one non-target", it says "negates the spell". As in kaput.

All of this to say, the spell is probably not written up properly. If centered on a creature, it should target the creature in order to work properly, if it is intended to radiate an absolute silence.

I agree completely. I think what happened here was the 3rd ed designers were trying to shoehorn every spell into their Unified Spell Theory, and Silence was so particular about how it works it did not translate well. I think it should have been worded more clearly, but then the problem arises where the PRPG designers, building on the established 3.5 rules, probably never gave this textbook spell a second thought.

Incidentally, since the silence allows no SR, it would probably make sense, too, for the spell to be a conjuration effect otherwise it's, well, cheating.

Silence does allow SR. It says to three times in the spell description.

Spell Resistance: yes; see text or no (object)

An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save
to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a
creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the
benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and
points in space do not.

There is probably no really great answer to this one, since either way you interpret the spell departs from previous versions, and allowing a save for everyone in the area raises weird issues (and apparently has little pedigree) while allowing one only for the creature on whom a spell is centered also works strangely unless you use a nonstandard definition of "negates."

Well, IMO, the great answer is the same it's been for over 30 years. Allowing only one save for the "center-but-not-a-Target" to negate isn't a non-standard definition of "negate" either, really. The subject of a Ghoul Touch doesn't exude a cloud of noxious gas if he makes his "Fortitude: negates" save. Silence is like that, only more flexible since you can cast it in space or on objects. The only time a save is waranted for Silence is when you try to "stick" the source of the emanation on a creature or magic object.

I think we can both agree that the translation to 3rd ed was clunky, and was not addressed with the Pathfinder version either. I'm wonder if this ever came up for 3.0, and if it was answered by Sage Advice or beat to death in the old Rules forum here on ENWorld.

 

[Humanaut]

My two bits,

I've always seen the save as to avoid the spell "sticking" to you. Nobody else gets a save because they can walk out of the area, however, if you are the target of the spell and fail your save you are silent no matter where you go.

 

[pawsplay]

What I meant about SR is that ordinarily, you get SR to resist non-conjuration effects. By the reading above, silence would only grant SR to the "center" of the spell.

Will neg (as read in the text) doesn't negate the spell for the one not-targeted-but-instead-centered, it negates the entire spell.

Pardon my being obstinate, but it doesn't say entire spell. It just says it negates it. Negates is a defined term, under Saving Throws, in the spell description section of the rules:

Saving Throws
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.

Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.

If, indeed, a creature on whom the spell is centered makes his Will save, the spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw. Hence, that person is unaffected. However, negating has no effect on people who do not make their save. No save, no negating.

Negating a spell has no effect on the duration or effect of a spell with regard to other creatures in the area of effect, otherwise the sleep spell would be very problematic. Negating does not mean the same thing as counterspelling, dispeling, or suppressing a spell, terms used elsewhere in the rules.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

actually light in ADnD worked in a way that when it fails o stick on a creature, it instead sticks on the point in space a little bit behind you...

actually it was even meaner... you could put a continula light at the enemy´s nose and use it as a ghetto blind spell...

To pawsplay: i am really sure you are wrong, but i like his interpretation... still beeing able to cast a spell with only 20% chance of failure when you make your save sounds more or less fair.

edit: ok, now i am not totally sure you are wrong anymore...

 

[Twowolves]

If, indeed, a creature on whom the spell is centered makes his Will save, the spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw. Hence, that person is unaffected. However, negating has no effect on people who do not make their save. No save, no negating.

Negating a spell has no effect on the duration or effect of a spell with regard to other creatures in the area of effect, otherwise the sleep spell would be very problematic. Negating does not mean the same thing as counterspelling, dispeling, or suppressing a spell, terms used elsewhere in the rules.

Call me old fashioned, but when someone is describing something to me in the singular, I tend to think of that something acting on only ONE thing. If they use the plural, they mean more than one thing. If there is room for confusion, they specify. Like how the spell uses the singular "AN unwilling CREATURE" (singular) getting "A will SAVE" (again singular), while in the very next sentence it uses the plural "ITEMS" (plural) "receive the benefit of SAVES" (again plural).

Sleep, as you singled out, uses the plural throughout it's wording, except to specify actions taken against a single subject:

SLEEP
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 1,
sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of
creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell’s point of origin are affected first. HD that are not sufficient to affect
a creature are wasted. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping
or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does
not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action). Sleep does not target unconscious creatures,
constructs, or undead creatures.

Obviously, slapping one sleeping creature won't wake them all up, so the spell is specific in it's use of singular vs plural. So, back to Silence:

SILENCE
School illusion (glamer); Level bard 2, cleric 2
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or
point in space
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object); Spell
Resistance: yes; see text or no (object)
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the
affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible,
spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise
whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The
spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary
unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on
a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and
moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects.

Ergo, if the spell meant for all of the creatures in the AoE to have a Will save to negate the effects of the spell for each individually, the description would say so, as it does when discussing objects in the AoE.

 

[pawsplay]

Ergo, if the spell meant for all of the creatures in the AoE to have a Will save to negate the effects of the spell for each individually, the description would say so, as it does when discussing objects in the AoE.

So is it your feeling that every object in the area gets a saving throw, as the plural was specified? "An unwilling creature" is a generic phrase; the specific would be "the unwilling creature." If it were written as "the unwilling creature," a lot of ambiguity would evaporate. I assume the generic was chosen because there is a creature, but it may or may not be unwilling, and only if it is unwilling does it get a save. Interestingly, a creature who is willing does not have to apply SR, as only unwilling creatures get saves and SR.

Nonetheless, the meaning of the word "negate" remains the same, so all creatures except the saving creature would be be affected by the spell. And there is simply no getting around that, except by errata that changes the word "negate" in the spell description to something else.

 

[Twowolves]

The plural as used for items is used explicitly because A) only unattended magic items ever get a save and B) it's talking about unattended magic items that make noise, a la singing swords or self-playing harps. Every unattended noise-making magic item does get a save, IMO.

Secondly, you say they would have used "The unwiling creature" insead of "An unwilling creature". I say had they meant the plural they would have used "ANY unwilling creature", which they did not. "Negate" is a rule-defined term and it's meaning is clearly defined, except when an exception is given. I feel the wording of Silence and it's history as an oddly-behaving spell throughout the editions is such an exception.

Thirdly, creatures with SR have to use a standard action to intentionally drop their SR in order to have it not work for a given spell. You can voluntarily forego saves and actively supress your SR. Thus even willing creatures still apply SR unless they actively (standard action) supress it.

 

[pawsplay]

The plural as used for items is used explicitly because A) only unattended magic items ever get a save and B) it's talking about unattended magic items that make noise, a la singing swords or self-playing harps. Every unattended noise-making magic item does get a save, IMO.

That's very interesting. So all unattended magic items get a save, while actual creatures do not.

Secondly, you say they would have used "The unwiling creature" insead of "An unwilling creature". I say had they meant the plural they would have used "ANY unwilling creature", which they did not.

It means the same thing. Perhaps you meant "Every unwilling creature" which would mean something different.

"Negate" is a rule-defined term and it's meaning is clearly defined, except when an exception is given. I feel the wording of Silence and it's history as an oddly-behaving spell throughout the editions is such an exception.

I don't see anywhere in silence there the term "negated" is defined at all.

Thirdly, creatures with SR have to use a standard action to intentionally drop their SR in order to have it not work for a given spell. You can voluntarily forego saves and actively supress your SR. Thus even willing creatures still apply SR unless they actively (standard action) supress it.

You are correct about all that. But actually we are both wrong:

Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature's mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Spell-resistant creatures can be harmed by a spell when they are not being directly affected.

Spell resistance does not apply if an effect fools the creature's senses or reveals something about the creature.

Hence, SR still only applies to creatures upon whom the spell is centered. "The benefits" obejcts receive are none unless the spell is centered on them. Silence, as a glamer, is not be subject to SR, except as provided by the spell.

 

[Twowolves]

I'd say unattended noisy items do, yeah. Of course, if a +1 shield were silenced.. who'd notice? Again, I think the spell is worded as it is because of weird stand-alone magical noisemakers.

I never understood why Silence is an Illusion(Glammer). It really should be Transmutation, IMO.

*goes to check is 1st ed PHB*

In fact, it was Alteration back in 1st ed. And it used to specify "No save" in the spell block, and state in the description that if you tried to stick the emanation the target did get a save. Making the save centered the effect 1 foot behind the intended target.

And oddly enough, the name of the spell was "Silence, 15' Radius" but the effect line in the stat block said "30' Diameter Sphere"....

 

[pawsplay]

And now it's time to pour some pints and call it a day.