Spellseed System

[aycarus]

Hi all,

So I've put up a build of a spellseed system I've been working on (doing spellcasting through skill points rather than though spell slots). I'm looking to get some opinions from people on what they think of the system and whatnot. Here's the link (don't be too overwhelmed by the size of the document - it's a lot of whitespace and spell lists):

http://www.eternalspires.net/~aycarus/Spellseed System.pdf

And the associated reference sheet that would be used by spellcasters to keep track of their spellseeds:

http://www.eternalspires.net/~aycarus/Spellseed Reference Sheet.pdf

So far, I've heard that people are concerned about poor character builds, (ie. becoming a cleric and investing all your skill points into arcane spellseeds) but otherwise haven't heard a lot of negative feedback.

It's worth noting that most of the spells that have been chosen to be removed from the system were removed mostly for flavour reasons; there's actually no reason why they couldn't be easily integrated back into the system.

Thoughts are greatly appreciated...

 

[Corlon]

wow, this is really cool. I tried something like this a bit ago and failed miserably. Once I get the time to read this, I'll get back to you .

 

[ender_wiggin]

This is something I've always wanted to do - create a magic system based entirely on skills. However, what about the flavor? What's the difference between spontaneous and formulaic (sorceror vs. wizard)? You might have covered this; I didn't read that carefully.

I don't like the fact that you took out spell failure, but that can be easily remedied in a homebrew.

Also, I don't particularly like the magic points. It introduces too many new numbers, imho. I was thinking something along the lines of a DC for casting spells. Each time a spell is cast, "mana debt" is gained, which increases the DC for spells. A failure on the DC means an automatic "mana debt" increase, with the spell failing. A caster can "force" the spell to complete, but must make a fort. save or take hp damage.

I would maybe condense the spell list. I don't know, I'll have to look at it more carefully.

Also, I would not allow non-caster classes to take these skills. Instead, if they want, they can take a feat which allows them to get 1 spell skill as a cross-class skill. This will prevent Fighters abusing their extra skill points by spending it all non-spell skills.

 

[aycarus]

This is something I've always wanted to do - create a magic system based entirely on skills. However, what about the flavor? What's the difference between spontaneous and formulaic (sorceror vs. wizard)? You might have covered this; I didn't read that carefully.

Sorcerors were completely removed from this particular build since Wizards suddenly came in and ran them out of a job (as everybody becomes a spontaneous caster under this system - no preparation of spells is required).

I don't like the fact that you took out spell failure, but that can be easily remedied in a homebrew.

I like spell failure myself, but I couldn't think of a reasonable way of integrating it into the system.

Also, I don't particularly like the magic points. It introduces too many new numbers, imho. I was thinking something along the lines of a DC for casting spells. Each time a spell is cast, "mana debt" is gained, which increases the DC for spells. A failure on the DC means an automatic "mana debt" increase, with the spell failing. A caster can "force" the spell to complete, but must make a fort. save or take hp damage.

It seems as though mana debt is another number to keep track of as well - I might have you wrong however. That's a cool idea, however. I think it could be integrated into this system pretty easily. A suggestion I might make is to make characters make rolls against their 20 minus their MP total when the MP total drops low enough. A failed saving throw means the spell fizzles and the only way to force it is to take hit point damage equal to the difference between the rolls. Just a suggestion - I think it mimicks what you're suggesting.

I would maybe condense the spell list. I don't know, I'll have to look at it more carefully.

Also, I would not allow non-caster classes to take these skills. Instead, if they want, they can take a feat which allows them to get 1 spell skill as a cross-class skill. This will prevent Fighters abusing their extra skill points by spending it all non-spell skills.

Part of the reason the system was created the way you see it is in order to generalize the concept of magic so that everybody has access to it. The fighter and rogue don't get any more skill points than before so they don't really have anything to abuse - they just have the ability to supplement their abilities with access to a few cross-class spell slots if desired. Rangers and paladins are able to "abuse" the system as well, but it means sacrificing spells in exchange for higher abilities.

One comment I did hear about the system that got me thinking was the idea of the mage-commoner. Due to the way the system is set up, even a commoner is able to take skill points towards eventually learning fireball. Nothing in the system prevents that, but in order to justify a commoner with fireball means that you'd have to justify a commoner putting 16 ranks into learning fireball explicitly rather than invest it back into better learning his trade... It's clearly very hard to picture that happening, but hey - it might - and there's no reason really to prevent that.

Probably my biggest argument for a system along these lines is it makes cross-classing into a wizard easily justified. Generally, we hear stories of wizards spending years upon years learning the basics of arcane magic to the skill they get it at first level. But similiarly, a barbarian could easily take a level in wizard with little justification. Under this system, there's no assumptions of the number of years of study put in by the caster. It's assumed that a mage's many years of study have instead gone into his 4x skill point bonus at first level - hence, at higher levels, it's difficult to catch up to a character that immediately took mage at first level (since you'd need 4 levels of skill points to eventually equal them).

A system like this certainly changes at least a few dynamics

 

[Fieari]

Why do you give wizards extra spellseed skillpoints for a con modifier? That seems... really really weird to me.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about your casting method. Spellpoints just... don't feel right to me. Since you've gone and made spell learning skill based anyway, why not make casting require a check, one that you can of course take 10 (or 20) on? For limiting castings per day, you could have failure (or even success) cause temporary skill penalties, or temporary negative levels.

I don't know. At the very least I feel that, if keeping the spellpoint system, a dedicated caster class like the wizard should get more spellpoints per skill than, say, a fighter...

 

[Wrathamon]

I am guessing because CON = LIFE and spellseeds might be powered by the lifeforce of the magic user???

 

[ender_wiggin]

It makes magic way too accessible to the common man. Don't get me wrong - this may work very well for your homebrew world, but mine is somewhat less magic-inundated.

However, there are still a lot of good ideas to be drawn from this. Mana debt, like you pointed out, is another number to track, but it's 1 number as opposed to a lot of numbers of the spell-per-day mechanic.

Like Fieari pointed out, it's very easy and very good to make advantage of skill checks, since the ability to cast spell is a skill anyway. So DC might equal 10 + spell level modifier + mana debt. I was thinking spell level modifier might be (spell level + 2) * 2. No matter what happens on the check, the mana debt increases by spell level. If failure, the spell dissipates, but sorcerors get a chance to "coerce" the spell to completion, which allows a constitution check against hit point damage. Wizards might get a chance to "fudge" the spell to completion, allowing an instant reroll which requires the mana debt to increase again. Failure would result in the spell backfiring, dealing hp damage to the wizard. Both "fudge" and "coerce" cause a level of fatigue.

Any thoughts?

 

[aycarus]

Why do you give wizards extra spellseed skillpoints for a con modifier? That seems... really really weird to me.

It is, in some sense because it's very much different than the concept of a frail uber-powerful wizard that most people can identify with. There were two reasons for choosing con, really:
1) From a game mechanics side, it seems poor to reward a wizard doubly for his intelligence score where that would not happen for any of the other classes.
2) From a realism side, it implies that spellcasting is a fatiguing process, so having a higher constitution score implies a tougher resiliance to the magical energies coursing through you.

On the realism side, it's a bit of a stretch with that justification, of course Any ideas?

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about your casting method. Spellpoints just... don't feel right to me. Since you've gone and made spell learning skill based anyway, why not make casting require a check, one that you can of course take 10 (or 20) on? For limiting castings per day, you could have failure (or even success) cause temporary skill penalties, or temporary negative levels.

Hmm... That's entirely possible too. How would one go about limiting the amount of magic a caster would have available at a single time?

I don't know. At the very least I feel that, if keeping the spellpoint system, a dedicated caster class like the wizard should get more spellpoints per skill than, say, a fighter...

They do. Since fighters only have access to spellseeds as cross class skills, they are only gaining 1 spell point for every skill point they invest in spellseeds. On the other hand, if you have a particular spellseed as a class skill you gain 2 spell points for every skill point you invest. The document might not be clear on what class skills classes actually get - they're the ones under "Major Seeds" for each class description.

 

[aycarus]

It makes magic way too accessible to the common man. Don't get me wrong - this may work very well for your homebrew world, but mine is somewhat less magic-inundated.

I spent some time thinking about this, and I'd actually argue that the system doesn't make magic much more accessible at all to the common man. If we assume a particular NPC is a commoner at 1st level and suddenly has the desire to pick up some spellcasting ability, he would have to find somebody to actually teach it to him (this is no easy task, acknowledging that teaching a commoner spellcasting is a very slow process - as it'll actually require levelling). Now, assuming further that the commoner has an intelligence of 14 (+2), that means that at the commoner's next level, he could invest all of his skill points in a single spellseed in order to essentially gain no more than one or two 1st level spells. Now, under this system, his spells would be highly specialized and he would in fact be sacrificing all of his skill points for that level just to gain spellcasting ability (this seems very poor for a commoner to do, when he could instead invest those skill points into skills to help his trade).

In the case of an average commoner with intelligence 10 or 11, it would, in fact, take two levels before they could actually even cast one or two first level spells. Finding a teacher willing to stick around for an NPC to level twice might be difficult, especially when he has real mages to teach. Mind you, in the case of a small town with a retired magic user, there's no reason that a few of his friends couldn't have picked up on magic missile or something of the sort to help with hunting. It really leaves magic proliferation moreso in the hands of the DM.

However, there are still a lot of good ideas to be drawn from this. Mana debt, like you pointed out, is another number to track, but it's 1 number as opposed to a lot of numbers of the spell-per-day mechanic.

Agreed... the spell-per-day mechanic is fairly poor and is a lot of numbers to keep track of. The spellseed system somewhat consolodates that to 2 numbers (current MPs, maximum MPs) and then mana debt could consolodate it even further to 1 number... it's just a question of how much consolodation you want to do, I guess.

Like Fieari pointed out, it's very easy and very good to make advantage of skill checks, since the ability to cast spell is a skill anyway. So DC might equal 10 + spell level modifier + mana debt. I was thinking spell level modifier might be (spell level + 2) * 2. No matter what happens on the check, the mana debt increases by spell level. If failure, the spell dissipates, but sorcerors get a chance to "coerce" the spell to completion, which allows a constitution check against hit point damage. Wizards might get a chance to "fudge" the spell to completion, allowing an instant reroll which requires the mana debt to increase again. Failure would result in the spell backfiring, dealing hp damage to the wizard. Both "fudge" and "coerce" cause a level of fatigue.

Any thoughts?

My one worry about a system like that is that wizards will very often lose their spells. Players might start disliking characters that only work 50% of the time (and will get really annoyed if the dice rolls aren't falling in their favour). How would mana debt be regained under a system like that?

 

[ender_wiggin]

Actually, the chance of success should be significantly higher than 50%. For example, an invoker at 1st level with a 16 int should have +7 to evocation. Plus a feat for the specialization, and that would increase it to about +10. Thus, to make the DC 16 check, he simply has to roll a 6 or higher. Now, even if he fails, he can retry at a DC 17; rolling 7 or higher. The chance of failure is (1/4)*(3/10)=(3/40)=(8.5%). At that's just 1st level, where the "spells-per-day" would say he has 2 1st level spells. To cast his second spell (assuming he had to fudge the first one), he has to roll an 8 or higher. If he fails, he has to roll 9 or higher. Chance of failure is (7/20)*(2/5)=(14/100)=(14%). It is very very likely that he will get the two spells off.

All in all, theoretically I think my system is pretty sound. The problem, of course, comes when you try to convert the cleric's divine spells (wraught with domains and other tricky things) to this system. Also, what happens with the paladin and ranger? I already figured it would work right if the bard gets all skills at cross-class.

Also, when mana debt becomes higher than current hit points, the caster becomes fatigued, and any further attempts at casting makes him exhausted, then incapacitated, then unconcious.

Paying back Mana Debt

Spontaneous casters would pay their caster level back every 4 hours. If a strenous activity (i.e. combat, heated argument) interrupts this, they don't pay back mana during that 4 hours.

Formulaic Casters have to study their spellbooks or pray for 1 hour, which must be either preceded or postceded immediately with 8 hours of uninterrupted rest. This resets the mana debt to 0.