Spellseed System

[aycarus]

Actually, the chance of success should be significantly higher than 50%. For example, an invoker at 1st level with a 16 int should have +7 to evocation. Plus a feat for the specialization, and that would increase it to about +10. Thus, to make the DC 16 check, he simply has to roll a 6 or higher. Now, even if he fails, he can retry at a DC 17; rolling 7 or higher. The chance of failure is (1/4)*(3/10)=(3/40)=(8.5%). At that's just 1st level, where the "spells-per-day" would say he has 2 1st level spells. To cast his second spell (assuming he had to fudge the first one), he has to roll an 8 or higher. If he fails, he has to roll 9 or higher. Chance of failure is (7/20)*(2/5)=(14/100)=(14%). It is very very likely that he will get the two spells off.

Once you get to wizards of higher level, it seems as though the DCs get somewhat out of hand. A 10th level wizard that empties his repritoire of higher level spells (3rd through 5th at 3/3/2), would have to make something in the range of a DC47 check to cast a 1st level spell thereafter. Considering you'd only get a base 13 ranks assuming you had filled up that particular skill, you'd need another 14 to even take a 20 on casting. Regardless, I know that my gaming group would really dislike it even if their fully decked out character (I'd assume that under your scenario, the only thing that could be closer to perfect at 1st level would be an 18 intelligence instead) would still only be able to get a second spell of 6 out of 7 times.

I think that it should be guaranteed most of the time, but if you can get beyond that it should be fine imo...

 

[ender_wiggin]

Hmmm...

I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps mana debt increases at slower rate.

0--0
1--1
2--2
3--2
4--3
5--3
6--4
7--4
8--5
9--5

or even

0--0
1--1
2--2
3--2
4--2
5--3
6--3
7--3
8--4
9--4

Would that solve anything?

 

[ender_wiggin]

At exquisitely high levels, this increase still will make it difficult for the wizard, who needs 9 hours to refresh, but the sorceror will be gaining back probably about 30 mana debt every 4 hours. This gives spontaneous casters a significant boost in casting ability.

Wizards will probably have access to ioun stones or other items of that sort that have mana pools of their own that you can use to pay back mana debt.

OR here's another idea.

You only add mana debt to the DC if your debt exceeds hit points. However, what happens when you have a fighter wizard with a ton of hit points (relative).

 

[aycarus]

Hmm... These are good ideas, but it's probably worth taking a step aside for a moment to look at how a magic system such as this could be justified. There are a few questions that need answering:

a) Is the mana debt a consequence of wizard fatigue (constitution based), or because of some other factor - ie. actually drawing from some sort of internal reservoir of mana (intelligence based)?

In the former case, there is no limit to the amount of magic one is able to cast; the only limit imposed comes from the wizard collapsing from exhaustion eventually... From the reservoir, there seems to be a limit on the amount of magic one can cast; in this situation there are two flavours as well - hard limit or soft limit. In the case of a hard limit, you can keep casting until your reservoir is depleted (so that's somewhat like the spell/magic points from the spellseed system). In the case of a soft limit, when your reservoir starts to run dry you need to start making increasingly difficult checks in order to pull off the spells. I'd argue that up until your reservoir is starting to run dry, the checks should be guaranteed...

Let's consider the number of spell levels a wizard has access to (assuming commoner intelligence):

1st - 1
2nd - 2
3rd - 4
4th - 7
5th - 10
6th - 15
7th - 20
8th - 27
9th - 34
10th - 43
11th - 52
12th - 63
13th - 74
14th - 87
15th - 100
...

applying a bit of combinatorics reveals that this progresses roughly at (1/2)(k+3)^2-4k-2 (the important part is that it increases quadratically). Unfortunately, skill points progress roughly linearly (it's actually slightly faster than linear), so in order to provide DCs which are roughly proportional to the number of spell levels a character has at his disposal, you need to consider the square of the number of ranks a character has invested. Unfortunately, this makes the math slightly more unweildly than would be normally desired.

Alternatively, if you really want to press ahead with the idea of mana debt, a system which preserves the square root of the spell levels is what you need. Thus, I'd suggest the following table for mana debt:

1st - 1
2nd - 1
3rd - 1
4th - 2
5th - 2
6th - 2
7th - 2
8th - 3
9th - 3

 

[ender_wiggin]

Wow, that's amazing analysis on your part.

I'm aiming for the soft limit, but I don't want to add any more numbers - thus, "garanteeing" a initial number of spells must come in the form of low DCs. For example, a tenth level wizard with +18 in his skill will be garanteed at least a few spells before the roll has any effect on the success/failure of the roll.

If you think its more appropriate, the base DC can be 5. With more level padding, i.e. separation of DC between spell levels. Of course, that would make casting 1st level spells a walk through the park, giving 1st level casters much more power than deserved.

I see the reasoning behind your words - however, another thing you must consider is the placement of certain spells.

3rd level, for example, includes a variety of high-damage evocation spells such as fireball, lightning bolt, and a variety of others. Thus, 3rd level should cause 2 mana debt, rather than 1. Besides, 3^(.5) = 1.73, which rounds up anyway.

Thus,

1--1
2--1
3--2
4--2
5--2
6--2
7--3
8--3
9--3

I'm considering even bumping 6 to 3 and bumping 9 to 4, as 6th level is considerable more powerful than 3rd. Of course, this is reflected in spell DCs...

Anyway, you said "slightly faster than linear". I'm assuming the "curve" comes from extraneous factors like items, PrC special abilities, etc. This will dramatically improve casting ability.

Also, consider this: high level wizards will have access to a variety of resources that will allow them to pay back mana debt. Sorcerors, at level 18, will be gaining approximately 25 mana debt back every 4 hours (assuming a +7 cha, which is very reasonable). Therefore, what this system restricts the most is the continuous casting of high level spells for an extended period of time without any sort of rest. Thus, I consider using the following allotment:

1--1
2--1
3--2
4--2
5--2
6--3
7--3
8--3
9--4

It's not quadratic, but I think it increases at an acceptable rate; slightly faster than parabolic. The jumps in cost occur at major jumps in spell power (especially jumps in damage-dealing spells). The reason damage dealing spells must be looked at so carefully is because, like I mentioned already, the system restricts continuous casting of spells, most commonly associated with combat, where these spells will be attempted the most.

BTW, sorry if I'm hijacking your thread - if you wish, we can return to talking about your system as it is, instead of talking about refining my modifications.

 

[aycarus]

Wow, that's amazing analysis on your part.

I'm aiming for the soft limit, but I don't want to add any more numbers - thus, "garanteeing" a initial number of spells must come in the form of low DCs. For example, a tenth level wizard with +18 in his skill will be garanteed at least a few spells before the roll has any effect on the success/failure of the roll.

If you think its more appropriate, the base DC can be 5. With more level padding, i.e. separation of DC between spell levels. Of course, that would make casting 1st level spells a walk through the park, giving 1st level casters much more power than deserved.

That'll probably be fine... I wouldn't expect anything except good math anyway. I just realized a very similar problem with my own system at low levels (apparently I only did the math at mid-levels - yipes). Anyway, under my current system, 1st level casters can cast an obscene number of spells - and again, it increases linearly. Very poor on my part.

I think one of the greatest problem with a new magic system will be maintaining consistency with the standard d20 system. Unfortunately, I can't figure them using any sort of standard equation for calculating practically anything I somewhat doubt that they had a math major on their crew.

I see the reasoning behind your words - however, another thing you must consider is the placement of certain spells.

3rd level, for example, includes a variety of high-damage evocation spells such as fireball, lightning bolt, and a variety of others. Thus, 3rd level should cause 2 mana debt, rather than 1. Besides, 3^(.5) = 1.73, which rounds up anyway.

...

I'm considering even bumping 6 to 3 and bumping 9 to 4, as 6th level is considerable more powerful than 3rd. Of course, this is reflected in spell DCs...

That should be fine... but you might want to test things out to make sure that you're not giving people power for free. For example, if 5th and 3rd level spells have the same cost, then mages will always be casting the 5th level spell. The only way to avoid this is to use fractions, which makes the math very obfuscated.

Anyway, you said "slightly faster than linear". I'm assuming the "curve" comes from extraneous factors like items, PrC special abilities, etc. This will dramatically improve casting ability.

Yup. Good call.

BTW, sorry if I'm hijacking your thread - if you wish, we can return to talking about your system as it is, instead of talking about refining my modifications.

That's fine. It's helped me out a lot with some system decisions insofar. I'll need to post another build soon. Send me an ICQ or MSN message if you want to talk spell systems in a more direct way.

 

[Wrathamon]

Instead of Mana Debt or spell points, why not just use Non Lethal damage (D20 Modern version) so you take X number of non lethal damage per effective spell level.

This represents the Caster knocking himself out and if he takes a moment he can recover non-lethal damage fairly quickly and this avoids the caster standing around because they are out of power points or spell slots problem.

But, it help balance casters from unloading everything in one combat, that spell points can normally do.

The hard part is balancing the amount of non-lethal taken.

 

[ender_wiggin]

IMW there's no difference between lethal and non-lethal damage. HP loss does not represent tangible wounds that are potentially lethal.

Anyway, arcane spells are split into 8 schools; 8 skills. Divine spells will definately be cut to 4; Eight skills is too much for a caster to manage. Does anyone have any ideas on how to group these skills?


In order to give players more skill:
Requisite Abilities: Players choose a requisite ability at first level. They gain bonus skills equal to their modifier for that ability; these can only be used on skills with keyed to the requisite ability. This should give casters about 3 extra points per level. At higher levels it will be more like 6 or 7.

 

[Wrathamon]

I dont know anything about your world. Just what I read in the Spellseed document which is what the topic is about.

I think it might be best to start a thread on your own magic system and we can carry this conversation over there. (post a link)

If you can post a document about your world and then we can potential provide advice for your magic system as well.

Now back on to the Spellseed topic

How do Major and Minor spellseeds work together again? It was a little confusing when I read it at 1:00 am

 

[aycarus]

How do Major and Minor spellseeds work together again? It was a little confusing when I read it at 1:00 am

Major spellseeds are treated as skills... To access spells in minor spellseeds you have to meet the prerequisites in the associated major spell seed and pay 1 skill point and then you gain access to that particular spell. This was a means for classifying spells that aren't naturally associated with any particular category out of the ones suggested.