Spider Climb

[Quidam]

I've usually allowed spiderclimbers to use their hands for attacking and spellcasting. The fact that they need to be facing the wall, though, seems to be a bit of an impediment- even aside from the four-limbs-on-the-surface issue.

I think in the future I'll rule that with a MEA you can turn yourself around so that you're sitting on your heels, facing away from the wall. In that position you can see what you're aiming at and fire missile weapons or shoot spells.

On the ceiling, there's not as much of a problem in seeing what you're aiming at, but you've only got one hand free in that situation, so no bows or other weapons that require two hands. Spells are ok, though.

 

[LokiDR]

I've usually allowed spiderclimbers to use their hands for attacking and spellcasting. The fact that they need to be facing the wall, though, seems to be a bit of an impediment- even aside from the four-limbs-on-the-surface issue.

Where does it say you need to face the wall? You could "crab walk" up the wall, and even if you do crawl normally, you can still turn your torso enough to see directly away from the wall.

 

[Celebrim]

Hadit: My experience both as a DM and a PC with this spell is that it is just about broken and often highly problimatic.

There was a very good thread on this very subject a couple of months ago. In brief, the problem with the spell is that its description implies two things without definately stating what either means.

First, it implies that the character can climb along ceilings and so forth as if they were normal ground.

Second, it implies that the character can climb as well as a spider.

The problem is that these are, as Belabrus has also pointed out, mutually exclusive things.

In D&D, spiders can't actually climb all that well. They have no racial bonus to climb. At best, they have a climb speed, which implies that 'as well as a spider' means that the player has a climb speed, but that is certainly not enough to justify the character climbing on the ceiling. Heck, its not enough to justify an armored character climbing up the walls.

A climb speed lets you take 10 on climb checks, and move at your speed vertically up surfaces. Even if it gives a +10 bonus to climb checks, you probably will not be able to climb sheer walls if you are wearing armor even by taking 10, much less crawl along ceilings.

The big problem I have with spider climb is that if it is giving the equivalent of a +50 or better bonus to climb, and in some cases an equivalent bonus to balance (If you can climb along a ceiling upside down, can you climb along the underside of a beam or a rope with the same degree of safety? Can you stick to just about anything you want to stick too?) then it is horribly overpowered for a first level spell and items like slippers of spider climbing are terribly underpriced.

My PC has Slippers of Spider Climbing, and abuses the hell out of them to the point that I as a player am disatisfied about how much power they give me to frustrate the DM for such a 'weak item'. I might as well be flying everywhere. This lesson taught me to take a very technical approach to the spell in my own campaign. Even with a technical approach, its a good 1st level spell for a lightly equiped rogue or spell caster, but it doesn't let armored clerics and fighters turn my rooms upside down and do all of thier dungeneering on the ceiling.

 

[Hadit]

Keep in mind that there is no "Spider" in the MM only Monsterous Spider.

Scientifically speaking, a giant spider cannot climb across a ceiling. The only thing that allows a small spider to do it is surface tension. Larger spiders (even tarantulas) can't even climb walls all that well.

But who knows with magic.

The spell refers to a normal "fine" spider which can walk on walls and ceilings so the recipent of the spell can too.

DC

Yeah, I think that's a good point... the point I was looking for to rationalize my intuitive ruling that the recipient of Spider Climb can climb about perfectly fine without the hassle of 'climb checks'.
Thanks!

 

[Hadit]

Hadit: My experience both as a DM and a PC with this spell is that it is just about broken and often highly problimatic...

Missed your post as we posted at the same time.

You raise some valid points, Celebrim... stuff I will have to take time to consider.
Since the spell hasn't been abused (yet) in my campaign, I will probably just use the simple ruling I described above, but I will keep your warnings in mind if things seem to get out of hand.

 

[LokiDR]

Hadit: My experience both as a DM and a PC with this spell is that it is just about broken and often highly problimatic.

Really? You can fly with 2 different 2nd level spells.

There was a very good thread on this very subject a couple of months ago. In brief, the problem with the spell is that its description implies two things without definately stating what either means.

First, it implies that the character can climb along ceilings and so forth as if they were normal ground.

Second, it implies that the character can climb as well as a spider.

The problem is that these are, as Belabrus has also pointed out, mutually exclusive things.

I don't think it implies either. From the SRD:

The subject can climb and travel on vertical surfaces or even traverse ceilings as well as a spider does. The affected creature must have bare hands and feet to climb in this manner. The subject climbs at half its speed. A creature with a Strength score of at least 20 +1 per caster level can pull the subject off a wall.

Discounting the first sentence, which gives no rule information, you do not climb as fast as you move, so it isn't normal ground. You must use 4 limbs to climb, where spiders have 8. You can't wave your hands around or use a two handed weapon.

In D&D, spiders can't actually climb all that well. They have no racial bonus to climb. At best, they have a climb speed, which implies that 'as well as a spider' means that the player has a climb speed, but that is certainly not enough to justify the character climbing on the ceiling. Heck, its not enough to justify an armored character climbing up the walls.

Note the PH came out before the MM. I don't think the spell should have that first sentence at all, as it just confuses the issue.

A climb speed lets you take 10 on climb checks, and move at your speed vertically up surfaces. Even if it gives a +10 bonus to climb checks, you probably will not be able to climb sheer walls if you are wearing armor even by taking 10, much less crawl along ceilings.

Jump gives a +30 The spell says nothing about climb skill checks, at all, so why add that as an element?

The big problem I have with spider climb is that if it is giving the equivalent of a +50 or better bonus to climb, and in some cases an equivalent bonus to balance (If you can climb along a ceiling upside down, can you climb along the underside of a beam or a rope with the same degree of safety? Can you stick to just about anything you want to stick too?) then it is horribly overpowered for a first level spell and items like slippers of spider climbing are terribly underpriced.

Crawling hand over hand along a rope is easier than balancing on the rope. The spell does not grant any bonus to balance, so don't give one. If you couldn't crawl otherwise you can't crawl now. If the slippers force you to keep your hands to the wall, then they are similarly powered to spell.

My PC has Slippers of Spider Climbing, and abuses the hell out of them to the point that I as a player am disatisfied about how much power they give me to frustrate the DM for such a 'weak item'. I might as well be flying everywhere. This lesson taught me to take a very technical approach to the spell in my own campaign. Even with a technical approach, its a good 1st level spell for a lightly equiped rogue or spell caster, but it doesn't let armored clerics and fighters turn my rooms upside down and do all of thier dungeneering on the ceiling.

You can fly everywhere with a permanent 2nd, 3rd or 4th level spell. If there are no walls/trees, spider climb is fairly usesless. I would prefer to have a fly spell in every case. I have always seen spider climb as nifty but not overpowered. And I try to powergame such things at least once.

 

[andargor]

There was a very good thread on this very subject a couple of months ago. In brief, the problem with the spell is that its description implies two things without definately stating what either means.

If it can help, I sometimes give a narrative of some of our game sessions, and ask associated rule questions. There was one such occurence where Spider Climb was discussed.

The thread can be found here .

HTH,

Andargor